AUAP in trouble with AACRAO

[michael]

AACRAO Files Lawsuit to Protect the Association's Trademarks

On January 25, 2006, AACRAO filed a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia against American Universities Admission Program, Inc. (AUAP) and Jean-Noel Prade (defendants). The lawsuit alleges trademark infringement in violation of federal law, federal unfair competition and false designation of origin, and common law unfair competition under District of Columbia common law. In addition to seeking damages and a permanent injunction against AUAP and Prade, AACRAO is seeking a temporary restraining order to immediately enjoin AUAP and Prade from using any of AACRAO’s trademarks, falsely representing that they have any affiliation with AACRAO or otherwise engaging in deceptive acts and practices in the conduct of its business.

False claims of membership in AACRAO, unauthorized uses of the AACRAO logo, and deceptive practices intended to mislead the public into believing that certain activities and/or services have been reviewed, approved, or accredited by AACRAO are a significant problem for the Association. AACRAO and other legitimate higher education organizations are under constant assault by diploma mills, fake accrediting bodies and/or credential evaluation mills. These entities typically attempt to misappropriate AACRAO’s respected and reputable name to further their fraudulent and deceptive activities. Unfortunately, many such operations are beyond the reach of American law. Where AACRAO can take action, however, it will do so with the full force of the law to preserve the Association’s reputation and its intellectual property rights in its trademarks.

Information on this pending action is posted on the AACRAO web site.

Complaint: http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/complaint.pdf (http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/complaint.pdf)

Temporary Restraining Order: http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/tro.pdf (http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/tro.pdf)

Memorandum of Points and Authorities: http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/memoofpointsandauthorities.pdf (http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/memoofpointsandauthorities.pdf)

[Robert J.]

I noticed they still have the AACRAO logo on their website.

[Redlyne Racer]

More here:

http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/02/10/aacrao

The headline ("Registrars’ Group Takes On Diploma Mills") and content make it clear this is an attack on Robert de Sorbon, not just a trademark action. In that sense similar to the Regis/St. Regis action. Part of a similar strategy by the same players?

Nice timing, with Prade on the disabled list:
"...Prade was unavailable for comment because he had been hospitalized with four broken vertebrae sustained in an accident."

[James Grey]

AACRAO Files Lawsuit to Protect the Association's Trademarks

On January 25, 2006, AACRAO filed a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia against American Universities Admission Program, Inc. (AUAP) and Jean-Noel Prade (defendants). The lawsuit alleges trademark infringement in violation of federal law, federal unfair competition and false designation of origin, and common law unfair competition under District of Columbia common law. In addition to seeking damages and a permanent injunction against AUAP and Prade, AACRAO is seeking a temporary restraining order to immediately enjoin AUAP and Prade from using any of AACRAO’s trademarks, falsely representing that they have any affiliation with AACRAO or otherwise engaging in deceptive acts and practices in the conduct of its business.

False claims of membership in AACRAO, unauthorized uses of the AACRAO logo, and deceptive practices intended to mislead the public into believing that certain activities and/or services have been reviewed, approved, or accredited by AACRAO are a significant problem for the Association. AACRAO and other legitimate higher education organizations are under constant assault by diploma mills, fake accrediting bodies and/or credential evaluation mills. These entities typically attempt to misappropriate AACRAO’s respected and reputable name to further their fraudulent and deceptive activities. Unfortunately, many such operations are beyond the reach of American law. Where AACRAO can take action, however, it will do so with the full force of the law to preserve the Association’s reputation and its intellectual property rights in its trademarks.

Information on this pending action is posted on the AACRAO web site.

Complaint: http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/complaint.pdf (http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/complaint.pdf)

Temporary Restraining Order: http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/tro.pdf (http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/tro.pdf)

Memorandum of Points and Authorities: http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/memoofpointsandauthorities.pdf (http://www.aacrao.org/reporting/memoofpointsandauthorities.pdf)


How sad. There is NO WAY that this could be true. It must be a malicious prank started by someone. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I wonder if this will affect that wonderful new ground breaking leading edge university that also runs out of Prade's office - Rabbit Sore-Bum? :confused:

[CROA]

On 2/28/2006, the TRO (temporary rerstraining order) motion from the expensive Law firm Aren't Fox representing the AACRAO against AUAP was denied by thr US District Court of Columbia.Ref 1:06-cv-00137

[michael]

How would someone verify CROA's information? I don't know how to look up this type of information.

[VocMan]

On another Chanel people complain that Sorbon is very quiet, Is the owner in the hospital?

Quote
For everyone's attention:

I'm pissed at Robert de S o r b o n

There email systems keep timing out and dropping messages from queues (especially mx1.sorbonedu.com).

Mail that does get through in many cases gets a 'mailbox full' rejection message.

Over 50 emails later, no replies have been received.

Requests for new applications - Applied for Sciences degree over 90 days ago. Even after paying the 600euro processing fee, no result has been heard yet.

If they are overworked, or have a large workload, this is not my problem - it's theirs.

I've raised disputes with PayPal and await their response.

If anyone from R.D.S. is reading this - please get your 'kin act together.

--------------------------------

[CROA]

How would someone verify CROA's information? I don't know how to look up this type of information.

The Court denied, in reality, not one but two motions presented by the AACRAO counsel against AUAP. It was filed electronically on 2/28/2006 at 12:23 PM EDT at the US District Court of the District of Columbia.

[CROA]

in it's pages, that their TBO motion (posted on their site) was denied by the Federal court ... Is it not funny ?

[michael]

in it's pages, that their TBO motion (posted on their site) was denied by the Federal court ... Is it not funny ?
only to you.

[Capella Rocks]

in it's pages, that their TBO motion (posted on their site) was denied by the Federal court ... Is it not funny ?

I have an issue with people who put truth out of context. Attached is the ruling by the court, which is available on PACER.

Shawn

[michael]

I have an issue with people who put truth out of context. Attached is the ruling by the court, which is available on PACER.

Shawn

So basically the Judge has put the whole thing on hold? I'm sorry i don't speak lawyer.

[James Grey]

I have an issue with people who put truth out of context. Attached is the ruling by the court, which is available on PACER.

Shawn

So action is temporarily stayed which is reasonable of the Court considering the apparently genuine unavoidable absence of Prade. In the event that Prade does not get anything going and file any sort of rebuttal or defence, he loses. In the meantime AACROA can take different action if it wishes to.

Prade won't win on this.

It is interesting the Prade becomes 'inoperative' and Rabbit Sore Bum also becomes inoperative. My contention form Day 1 has been that we can't prove if Alain exists other than in cyberspace - has anyone ever let him? OK - emails came from different places - which proves nothing either.

Things have a way of working out. Current matters seem to relate not to obvious out and out degree mills, but more those operations that are pseudo aned/or masqueraders. Robert Sorbonne in its varying guises, Adam Smith, IUFS, and the infamous gimmicky WIDU which really seems to be 'smoking something funny'.

I do believe that there are many people around the place who simply can't make the grade to get a real degree. They are attracted this new breed of institution like lawyers to a road accident. Some have a real degree, so why don't they get on with life and make the most of what they have achieved? Others have more chance of ice skating in hell than getting to first base.

So we attract them here as apologists, ******, ****** ...

[Capella Rocks]

So basically the Judge has put the whole thing on hold? I'm sorry i don't speak lawyer.

Basically, yes. The court denied the TRO, but set a deadline for both parties for motions for a temporary injunction.

This is why I placed the entire document - by reading the order in context, (even though it is in "Lawyer"), it is hard to argue against the truth presented in its entire context.

Shawn

[CROA]

As you see AACRAO, through its lawyers, presented a motion, which was denied by the court . I think, not being a lawyer that the facts are clear.

It is strange that AACRAO posted its TRO Ttemporary Restraining Order) motion but "forget" to mention the result: "Denied".

Also the contention is about the fact of AACRAO membership (real or associate) not about any university.

From what I heard from somebody present at the hearing, the judge wants a private setllement.

[michael]

They have also given AACRAO to bring up other charges they want to bring up, so I don't see how you could consider this a "win"

[Capella Rocks]

As you see AACRAO, through its lawyers, presented a motion, which was denied by the court . I think, not being a lawyer that the facts are clear.

It is strange that AACRAO posted its TRO Ttemporary Restraining Order) motion but "forget" to mention the result: "Denied".

Also the contention is about the fact of AACRAO membership (real or associate) not about any university.

From what I heard from somebody present at the hearing, the judge wants a private setllement.

Most judges want a private settlement as litigation is expensive and time consuming.

As far as a win goes - your original post made it seem as though AACRAO lost. The judge, while denying the TRO, decided to push the matter back due to the lack of counsel for the AUAP. So for anyone to declare a win, loss, or draw is a bit premature. In addition, AACRAO may decide to appeal the decision for the TRO.

[Maya]

This is not a win for AUAP at all. Not a loss for AACRAO. Just normal legal business.

Please note that Sorbon is answering emails and accepted at least one application that I am aware of, so they are in business. Prade is flat on his back - so I wonder how he can be the same person as Alain if Alain is pretty easy to contact and responds back. The gossip here is funny. Why not call France or the embassy and then you will have facts instead of gossip.

[James Grey]

This is not a win for AUAP at all. Not a loss for AACRAO. Just normal legal business.

Please note that Sorbon is answering emails and accepted at least one application that I am aware of, so they are in business. Prade is flat on his back - so I wonder how he can be the same person as Alain if Alain is pretty easy to contact and responds back. The gossip here is funny. Why not call France or the embassy and then you will have facts instead of gossip.

Poor applicant - couldn't make the grade for a regular degree?

Have you met Alain? Tell us more ...

There is no gossip here - AND we know the French position from its source.

INCIDENTALLY, as all of your posts have been about Robert Sorbonne, and more particularly either in support of it or against what any detractors have said:

1. What is your relationship with Robert Sorbonne?
2. Do you have a degree from Robert Sorbonne?

It is interesting how this waste-of-time-RSU-topic seems to stay alive.

Is it impossible to put it out of its misery?
... but maybe after the apologist or sh*ll Maya declares himself/herself in respect of Robert Sorbonne.

[michael]

Everyone go back to your corners and calm down. Maya, If you bother to read the Sorbone thread you will see the efforts I have put forth to find out the legal status of Sorbon. Lets keep this on topic people.

[Dennis Ruhl]

Why not call France or the embassy and then you will have facts instead of gossip.

Where have we heard that before? Different country.

[morleyl]

I am not a graduate, employee or faculty of Sorbon but I would love to see them succeed. I mean in the sense of improving in many areas and offer a good alternative for adult validation.

Many persons keep saying the VAE or PLA is the easy route but from my research its not easy. Its not easy to get 50% credit at TESC by PLA, so why is considered easy with the VAE approach.

It would be good to have more objective discussion of this area in another thread.

[VocMan]

Degree is integral part of the professional but not the only one.

Professional is someone with education, training and experience.

Awards that recognize all 3 and take in to consideration all 3 are fair and honorable.
Degree is not a shortcut to professional status.

New graduates at time cause more damage at work than contribute, It takes time with appropriate training to turn a graduate in to a professional.

New graduates have the #1 and need # 2 and 3 to be real professional.

UK system is leading in recognition of vocational, professional and academic qualifications.

It's not always how well one can do by taking exams but how well he can apply the knowledge learned in to a practical contribution to a project at work. A new graduate from very well known university just last week burned a whole system that cost 360,000 USD.
The stupid feeling of superiority was gone real fast and lesson in humility was on the way.

I'm one step away from GCGI award and I have trained many yang graduates that couldn't hold a screwdriver when they show up to work.

[morleyl]

Good points, thats why I really prefer the UK Chartered Engineer or Incorporated Engineer. Much better approach to ensure compence as oppose to presenting a piece of paper. The schooling is very important but not the end in itself.

[michael]

I'm one step away from GCGI award and I have trained many yang graduates that couldn't hold a screwdriver when they show up to work.

You wouldn't believe how many EE's and ME's I have had to train to use a computer or even put one together, and all I had was a lowly BS for ITT.

OF course I also had my first computer at the age of 12, which i promptly took apart two days after I got it. :p

[CROA]

Everyone go back to your corners and calm down. Maya, If you bother to read the Sorbone thread you will see the efforts I have put forth to find out the legal status of Sorbon. Lets keep this on topic people.

Hello,

We have well received your email and we thank you for your interest in the Consulate General of France .

French Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is legally allowed to issue certificates and degrees in France.
But they do not deliver certificates and degrees reconized by the french government.

[Rector]

Hello,

We have well received your email and we thank you for your interest in the Consulate General of France .

French Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is legally allowed to issue certificates and degrees in France.
But they do not deliver certificates and degrees reconized by the french government.

Its always bad when the schools degrees aren't recognized by its own country of residence and one of the indicators of substandard degree.

[Dennis Ruhl]

Hello,

We have well received your email and we thank you for your interest in the Consulate General of France .

French Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is legally allowed to issue certificates and degrees in France.
But they do not deliver certificates and degrees reconized by the french government.


So hows the weather in Florida these days?

[morleyl]

Its always bad when the schools degrees aren't recognized by its own country of residence and one of the indicators of substandard degree.

Well, the debate has gone on about what this recognition means many times. It has to do with Private versus Public schools and the accreditation process.

I am sure legal must means more than just a business license. This e-mail also means that ODA site is wrong.

On the other hand, Sorbon could do more for people to respect their process. While the VAE has a jury, there are many things you can do to validate the experience and knowledge. The IEE and BCS offers the Chartered Engineer process by distance so this type of process can be done.

To me the main factors for quality are.

1. Well qualified Faculy and

2. Process ( meaning how effective validation is done)

if those are followed together, then noone could question a school.

[michael]

Well, the debate has gone on about what this recognition means many times. It has to do with Private versus Public schools and the accreditation process.

I am sure legal must means more than just a business license. This e-mail also means that ODA site is wrong.

On the other hand, Sorbon could do more for people to respect their process. While the VAE has a jury, there are many things you can do to validate the experience and knowledge. The IEE and BCS offers the Chartered Engineer process by distance so this type of process can be done.

To me the main factors for quality are.

1. Well qualified Faculy and

2. Process ( meaning how effective validation is done)

if those are followed together, then noone could question a school.

Of course we have also been told by the MOE in France than an e-mail means nothing.

Besides, we have never seen full headers or the e-mail address that he contacted. so this could all be made up.

[morleyl]

Of course we have also been told by the MOE in France than an e-mail means nothing.

Besides, we have never seen full headers or the e-mail address that he contacted. so this could all be made up.

To finally address the issue, someone should write formally to the MOE and get the real position. Instead of constant speculation etc.

[michael]

To finally address the issue, someone should write formally to the MOE and get the real position. Instead of constant speculation etc.

I did, and it was posted, in the sorbone thread in the abyss.

[morleyl]

I did, and it was posted, in the sorbone thread in the abyss.


Can you post the link?

[michael]

http://forums.degreeboard.com/showpost.php?p=19209&postcount=25

[morleyl]

http://forums.degreeboard.com/showpost.php?p=19209&postcount=25

I have seen this one before. It basically confirm their legality for sure. The letter basically seem to point out that it cannot issue national diplomas as is. Other Established private schools are in the same boat too. Thats why they have some other accreditation.

What this is saying is that they are free to issue documents but would be treated on a case by case basis.
I am sure they would need some qualification to get setup anyway.

[Rector]

some Private echols earned good reputation and their diplomas are widely accepted by private sector.
Usually they provide education and class lead instruction, they exist very long time and had a chance to earn good reputation.

SRU is new and their diplomas are not recognized by their own country, some would say its an indicator of degree mill and fails the GAAP. They need time to earn reputation.

Now jury makes a difference, you see if the 3 professors awarding the diploma are of known academic reputation then there is a value of such judgement.

I wish RSU choose more humble, strait approach but it maybe to late.

[morleyl]

some Private echols earned good reputation and their diplomas are widely accepted by private sector.
Usually they provide education and class lead instruction, they exist very long time and had a chance to earn good reputation.

SRU is new and their diplomas are not recognized by their own country, some would say its an indicator of degree mill and fails the GAAP. They need time to earn reputation.

Now jury makes a difference, you see if the 3 professors awarding the diploma are of known academic reputation then there is a value of such judgement.

I wish RSU choose more humble, strait approach but it maybe to late.

I think if they follow the VAE in the true sense there is no reason why they can't develop a reputation. I think their main problem is communication and process. I like the idea of free faculty. Meaning once the professors are qualified they can be allowed to award degrees without too much oversight. The main concern with that is the greed for money.

In the end, it seem Sorbon is legal and not a mill in that sense. Of course they have done a lot to tarnish their own image anyway.

[Rector]

so is a franchise bakery, legal and can issue diplomas of non state format.

just kidding

[michael]

I think if they follow the VAE in the true sense there is no reason why they can't develop a reputation. I think their main problem is communication and process. I like the idea of free faculty. Meaning once the professors are qualified they can be allowed to award degrees without too much oversight. The main concern with that is the greed for money.

In the end, it seem Sorbon is legal and not a mill in that sense. Of course they have done a lot to tarnish their own image anyway.
If you mean tarnish their image to mean, having less than wonderful evaluation companies listed, and have one of those evaluation companies taking the money then yes, they have tarnished their image. I also always found it interesting that the french version of the website in the old says said it was an American degree. And, why do they need to be registered in the states? I never understood that. Also, at one point i remember seeing a list of professors, and they where all American..

I dunno, seems kinda odd to me.

[James Grey]

some Private echols earned good reputation and their diplomas are widely accepted by private sector.
Usually they provide education and class lead instruction, they exist very long time and had a chance to earn good reputation.

SRU is new and their diplomas are not recognized by their own country, some would say its an indicator of degree mill and fails the GAAP. They need time to earn reputation.

Now jury makes a difference, you see if the 3 professors awarding the diploma are of known academic reputation then there is a value of such judgement.

I wish RSU choose more humble, strait approach but it maybe to late.

I have spent several hours recounting the deficiencies of this 'institution', and regard it as a masquerader. People don't have to agree, and in this case it seems that there are ample trying to prove that RSU is kosher. I would rather take the other position and look for the weaknesses and deficiencies - we are not buying a domestic applicance that we can afford to replace tomorrow - we are looking at a degree that we are saddled with for life.

Usually if something appears to be too easy, it usually is. If something appears to good to be true, it usually is. If something appears to be too cheap it usually is.

I learned many decades ago that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. In the RSU case, the cost is $600. If the process IS followed, it is too cheap. Some of us have proof that the process is NOT followed so ....? Any who have a RSU degree would do well to seek confirmation or otherwise that verifiable material in their portfolio was in fact verified - they may be surprised with what they find.

The bottom line is, how many RSU 'graduates' could realistically acheive the same degree from a regular institution through the regular process? Not many, or not any? I will be gracious and suggest 'not many'.

[CROA]

If you trust their web pages, AUAP has students already accepted for 2006 at Columbia U, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth (half of the Ivy League) + New York University & Georgetown.

I doubt that they invented it. It looks they have this kind of success every year.

Perhaps (just perhaps) they are not as bad and unprofessional as some people say!

Knowing that the above situation will infuriate some angry contributors.
I wish them however a peaceful week end.
Dr Croa

[James Grey]

If you trust their web pages, AUAP has students already accepted for 2006 at Columbia U, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth (half of the Ivy League) + New York University & Georgetown.

I doubt that they invented it. It looks they have this kind of success every year.

Perhaps (just perhaps) they are not as bad and unprofessional as some people say!

Knowing that the above situation will infuriate some angry contributors.
I wish them however a peaceful week end.
Dr Croa

No one gets angry - there is a difference between anger and realism.

Is the Prade/Robert Sorbonne topic/issue areas your only conversation topic? What is your connection with them - a graduate, a 'marketing' represenative?

Would you care to share with us what your interest and experience is education is?

[Capella Rocks]

If you trust their web pages, AUAP has students already accepted for 2006 at Columbia U, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth (half of the Ivy League) + New York University & Georgetown.

I doubt that they invented it. It looks they have this kind of success every year.

Perhaps (just perhaps) they are not as bad and unprofessional as some people say!

Knowing that the above situation will infuriate some angry contributors.
I wish them however a peaceful week end.
Dr Croa

OK - so how could an objective observer verify this information... My guess is, probably not. If I were running a school that students could transfer to Penn, Cornell, et al., I think I would receive permission to use those students as references, if I were a legit school. I mean, even mills like Kennedy-Western list "graduates": http://www.kw.edu/alumni.asp?active=alumni&nav=2&FilterSelect=1&FilterValue=BUS

[morleyl]

I have spent several hours recounting the deficiencies of this 'institution', and regard it as a masquerader. People don't have to agree, and in this case it seems that there are ample trying to prove that RSU is kosher. I would rather take the other position and look for the weaknesses and deficiencies - we are not buying a domestic applicance that we can afford to replace tomorrow - we are looking at a degree that we are saddled with for life.

Usually if something appears to be too easy, it usually is. If something appears to good to be true, it usually is. If something appears to be too cheap it usually is.

I learned many decades ago that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. In the RSU case, the cost is $600. If the process IS followed, it is too cheap. Some of us have proof that the process is NOT followed so ....? Any who have a RSU degree would do well to seek confirmation or otherwise that verifiable material in their portfolio was in fact verified - they may be surprised with what they find.

The bottom line is, how many RSU 'graduates' could realistically acheive the same degree from a regular institution through the regular process? Not many, or not any? I will be gracious and suggest 'not many'.

You have made this point before about verification of documents, I personally will not use that as any proof of bad intention. If you apply to the BCS today, they will not verify every document you send them.

An important thing to me is honesty, while Sorbon needs to be honest as a school, a student should be honest what information is sent.

If the professors are qualified and they assume an honest student then they should be able to make an accurate judgement.

In respect to your point about Sorbon degree versus regular process, do you mean by VAE regular process? I disagree that a person in this case could not qualify by regular process. I think you have gone to an extreme which makes your arguments useless. You have no evidence to make such claims.

[Dennis Ruhl]

If you trust their web pages, AUAP has students already accepted for 2006 at Columbia U, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth (half of the Ivy League) + New York University & Georgetown.




Where have I seen similar claims?

Are we sure that these schools aren't confusing the Sorbon in Paris with the one in Florida?

[mike]

Hi,
On the end of all this all discutions about SRU, what we have?
A lot if things is not clear.
If SRU is not degre mill, like some in forum says this means it is in regular way with France edu syctem.
If this is a truthe, wath the problem is to accept
their diplomas.
Sincerly

[James Grey]

You have made this point before about verification of documents, I personally will not use that as any proof of bad intention. If you apply to the BCS today, they will not verify every document you send them.

An important thing to me is honesty, while Sorbon needs to be honest as a school, a student should be honest what information is sent.

If the professors are qualified and they assume an honest student then they should be able to make an accurate judgement.

In respect to your point about Sorbon degree versus regular process, do you mean by VAE regular process? I disagree that a person in this case could not qualify by regular process. I think you have gone to an extreme which makes your arguments useless. You have no evidence to make such claims.

The BCS is a professional body or variable repute who are quite happy if people confuse their "CITP" designation with "CEng".

Sorbon on the other hand, presents itself as a 'university' and solely uses what the candidate sends them for evaluation, to determine the eligibility for the award of their degree. The assessment is worthless and hence the degree so awarded, if there is no verfication of what is submitted for assessment. For a university to totally rely on the honesty of their student, as you suggest, renders their process a farce.

[morleyl]

The BCS is a professional body or variable repute who are quite happy if people confuse their "CITP" designation with "CEng".

Sorbon on the other hand, presents itself as a 'university' and solely uses what the candidate sends them for evaluation, to determine the eligibility for the award of their degree. The assessment is worthless and hence the degree so awarded, if there is no verfication of what is submitted for assessment. For a university to totally rely on the honesty of their student, as you suggest, renders their process a farce.

You have a way to fustrate a discussion for whatever reason. I was not saying that any school should rely on honesty of student only. If you have been to school you know cheating is a big problem anywhere. Thats why same people graduate in the same class, one a genius and the other barely getting by.

My Point is that overall review of documents could mean not verifying them in some cases. I personally believe some degree of verfication should take place, but not necessarily every document.

I am not sure about Sorbon's assessment process, but I know the VAE requires a file of porfolio and qualified professors to review. The school has flexibility to do other test or requirements before the jury occurs. Meaning the more complex the field, the more they should evaluate.

If the professors are qualified, they should be able to accept, partial or decline the applicant.

Personally, I believe in a Thesis level report and an interview minimum before any jury examine documents.

In respect to the BCS, Chartered to me is Chartered. However, Engineering has different requirements from pure IT. The CITP could be considered IEng and up.

[morleyl]

check out www.sorbon.fr. They now claimed to have been on strike since January. Thats very wierd

[Dennis Ruhl]

check out www.sorbon.fr. They now claimed to have been on strike since January. Thats very wierd


So Prade gets sick just as the school goes on strike. I've now seen it all and can die in peace. What would a strike in France have to do with a school in Florida?

[CROA]

AACRAO and AUAP have settled. No money will be exchanged. According to AACRAO they already spent $40 000 in DC lawyer's fees.

Being of French origin it is true that since January all Universities, ministries, many public administration,etc, were on strike because of the CPE (Contrat de Premier Emploi) Law. You probably saw those huge demonstration on ABC and CBS TV. It was ridiculous riots with students with the Unions backing against the new right to fire under 26 years old without motive nor compensation. The French government once again caved to the street and promulgated another law.

The good news is that the last universities (Rennes Grenoble, Poitiers) were liberated today according to Liberation newspaper.
Have a nice Othodox Easter next week end ! )if you are orthodox of course ! :cool:

[michael]

So what is the settlement? Anyone have access to that?

[Robert J.]

It is not the full text but the AUAP website did post this:

http://www.auap.com/judgement.html

[Dennis Ruhl]

Plaintiffs motion denied. Does this mean they settled? Wouldn't it say withdrawn if they settled? Did Prade win?

[ray1212]

:crazy2:Rumor has it that a local television station in Sarasota, Florida is going to spank Dr. Prade's "Pee Pee" sometime in May for issuing degrees from Florida on behalf of Sorbon. Look for the fireworks to happen. I actually thought their VAE degree was legal, until I received multiple emails from French Government Education officials stating they were not.

[James Grey]

:crazy2:Rumor has it that a local television station in Sarasota, Florida is going to spank Dr. Prade's "Pee Pee" sometime in May for issuing degrees from Florida on behalf of Sorbon. Look for the fireworks to happen. I actually thought their VAE degree was legal, until I received multiple emails from French Government Education officials stating they were not.

Multiple emails - wonderful! I am very glad that you have solved the RSU matter for us. We knew that we could rely on you :p

[carladelpon]

AUAP told me what they call facts non rumors:

"Mr. Raymond Hill, the author of the post, wrote to a local TV station, The reason : He was furious that AUAP refused to evaluate a bogus university called Brighton University that he was promoting:

He wrote to an AUAP employee.
"I was surprised to learn that AUAP reimbursed Mr. Barnhart his payment for the evaluation. You remember we discussed that he was a MBA graduate of Queens University of Brighton "

After that he write to the same employee in February 2008

"I highly respect you and Dr. Jean and would kindly request that you reconsider your evaluation of his credentials." AUAP refused to considering the alleged Brighton U. as asccedited. Mr. Hill get mad as he confessed that he was in business by this University and they will sue him....

It seems that Mr. Hill is not the "white knight" he pretends to be and his letter did not generate anything.

AACRAO was denied of his motion against AUAP, which is now I have been evaluation foreign credential for 14 years .

[ray1212]

:crazy2:Dear carladelpon,

I wrote the following email on behalf of a friend before I learned of Dr. Prade's activities regarding Sorbon. As I stated in another thread, he mailed the diplomas from his address in Sarasota, Florida, which is probably a violation of state laws regarding operating a university in his home state without a license. Next his emails were coming off the same server as Sorbon. Hum... how funny that Sorbon is supposedly located in France and his offices are located in Florida.

And finally, there are those emails from French government education officials which stated Sorbon is not operating legally in France. I was just as fooled as any of you. Now as Paul Harvey says, "Now we know the rest of the story."

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <MOccident@aol.com>
Date: Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 8:25 PM
Subject: Suite à votre Mèle du 26 Février
To: marie-christine.vigneux@ac-poitiers.fr, saj@ac-poitiers.fr


Chere Madame, Cher Monsieur,

Vous ecrivez " Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon n'est pas un établissement privé légal en France"

J'aimerai savoir sur quelle décision de justice vous vous fondez pour soutenir cette affirmation.

Je vous en remercie par avance car j'envisage de suivre un de leurs enseignements.
Avec mes salutations distinguées,

Robert Minebout

__________________________________________________ ___________



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: sup-info <sup-info@education.gouv.fr>
Date: 2008/3/7
Subject: Re: Demande pressante concernant Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon
To: "Dr. Robert Ray Hill" <militaryhero@gmail.com>


Bonjour,

Vous pouvez contacter madame Gouffran à l'adresse e-mail suivante :

danielle.gouffran@education.gouv.fr

Cordialement. Le vaguemestre
__________________________________________________ ____________

from SAJ - Rectorat de Poitiers <saj@ac-poitiers.fr>
Marie-Christine Vigneux <marie-christine.vigneux@ac-poitiers.fr>,
dateTue, Feb 26, 2008 at 10:13 AM
subject ecole Robert de Sorbon
mailed-byac-poitiers.fr
hide details 10:13 AM (3 hours ago) Reply
*_A l'attention du *=
Monsieur, Suite à votre e-mail du 22 février 2008, j'ai le regret de vous informer que l'école Robert de Sorbon n'est pas un établissement privé légal en france. Il n'est pas reconnu par le ministère de l'éducation nationale.
Salutations distinguées
--
Jean TAPIE
Rectorat de l'académie de Poitiers
Responsable de la cellule des Affaires juridiques
Tel: 05 49 54 70 25
Télécopie: 05 49 54 79 50
Courriel : saj@ac-poitiers.fr

Translation Provided By Babel Fish http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Dear Sir, Following your e-mail of February 22, 2008, I regret to inform you that the school Robert de Sorbon is not a legal private establishment in France. It is not recognized by the ministry for national education. Best greetings
__________________________________________________ ______________

from Jean-marie LEBON <Jean-marie.LEBON@diplomatie.gouv.fr>
cc Christophe MUSITELLI <Christophe.MUSITELLI@diplomatie.gouv.fr>,
Christian JOLY <Christian.JOLY@diplomatie.gouv.fr>,
Veronique FAYARD <Veronique.FAYARD@diplomatie.gouv.fr>,
date Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 5:33 PM
subject Bogus University
mailed-by diplomatie.gouv.fr
hide details 5:33 PM (16 minutes ago) Reply

Dear Sir,
The names of the "University Robert de Sorbon" and its American counterpart
are "well" known by many departments of education at the state level, and
even by US federal institutions. As soon as you discover a US institution
without a ".edu" website, you must know this is not an accredited school in
the USA.
A small search on google, ask, yahoo, etc, brings you several US official
documents listing this "school" as bogus. Please find three of these
documents here.
All the "degrees" delivered by "University Robert de Sorbon" are totally
useless. They have names - really funny - to escape the French law. This
bogus university MUST NOT be confused with the prestigious "Université
Panthéon Sorbonne" or "Paris 1", 12 place du Panthéon, 75005 Paris.
Cordialement. Jean-Marie Lebon
---
Jean-Marie Lebon
Educationalist
Studies Office - CampusFrance
Embassy of France
4101 Reservoir Road NW
Washington DC 20007 , USA
Tel: +1 202 944 6015, fax:+1 202 944 6268
jean-marie.lebon@diplomatie.gouv.fr

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Christian JOLY [mailto:Christian.JOLY@diplomatie.gouv.fr]
Envoyé : lundi 25 février 2008 17:01
À : 'Veronique FAYARD'
Cc : 'Christophe MUSITELLI'; 'Jean-marie LEBON'
Objet : French Private Education
Bonjour,
Bonne question : nous l'avions repéré comme suspect... Pour plus de
précision, je demande à Jean-Marie Lebon de vous faire une réponse plus
élaborée pour transmission au demandeur.
Je profite de cette occasion pour vous rappeler que nous disposons de
beaucoup d'informations sur ce type de questions, patiemment amassées par
Jean-Marie dans le cadre du studies office (progressivement intégré dans
l'Espace CampusFrance), et qu'il vaut mieux mutualiser nos questions et nos
réponses auprès de CampusFrance.

Bien cordialement,

Christian Joly, Ph.D
Higher Education
Embassy of France to the United States
4101 Reservoir Road, NW
Washington, DC 20007
Tél / Phone : (1) 202 944 6121
Fax : (1) 202 944 6268

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Veronique FAYARD [mailto:Veronique.FAYARD@diplomatie.gouv.fr]
Envoyé : lundi 25 février 2008 15:36
À : Christian JOLY
Cc : Christophe MUSITELLI
Objet : TR: French Private Education

Bonjour,

Nous avons été alertés au sujet du site
www.sorbon.fr qui paraît suspect ;
je vous fais suivre le message ci-dessous. Quelle réponse officielle
pouvons-nous apporter? Merci, Véronique
--
Veronique Fayard
Cultural Affairs Coordinator
Consulate General of France
530 Bush Street, 3rd floor
San Francisco, CA 94108
Ph: (415) 591.4822
Fax: (415) 591.4800
www.frenchculture.org

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: <culture@consulfrance-sanfrancisco.org>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 11:22 AM
Subject: French Private Education

Please reply as soon as possible. I am interested in finding out if the
Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon http://sorbon.fr/ is a legal private
university located in France and authorized to issue degrees at all
levels. Thank you for your assistance and timely reply. I have written
many people, including the French government and have not received a
reply. It is very important for me to find out this information. Sincerely
and Respectfully

Svp réponse aussitôt que possible. Je suis intéressé à découvrir si l'Ecole
Superieure Robert de Sorbon http://sorbon.fr/ est une université privée
légale située dans la France et autorisée pour publier des degrés à tous les
niveaux. Merci de votre aide et réponse opportune. J'ai écrit beaucoup de
gens, y compris le gouvernement français et le démuni a reçu une réponse. Il est très important que je découvre cette information. Sincèrement et avec
respect

[Samuel]

Bonjour,
Monsieur R Hill I see you no longer use Dr in your signature. Is it because you realize that IUFS DBA is noting to be proud of?
Your QUB is misleading accreditation to post membership as recognition, membership is for every one who pay membership fee.

Monsieur R Hill this is misleading deception to make QUB look like accredited.

American Council for Construction Education (ACCE) and National Association of Industrial Technology (NAIT) are accrediting organizations recognized by the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA,website:www.chea.org/pdf/CHEA_USDE_AllAccred.pdf) and were recognized by the U.S.Department of Education (USDE).
Please add that every one can become member and pay fee no check of quality only credit card.

Another misleading joke
QUB is in compliance with all State regulations to own and operate a university in the State of California.
Why you critique Sorbone for France and Florida location but not QUB for California location?
Brighton CA ?
In state no oversight at the moment any one I repeat anyone can start university and confuse buyers.
Réponses auprès

[ray1212]

:cuss:Dear Samuel,

I know nothing about QUB, nor do I have anything to do with them either. I am not going to dignify in giving you an answer regarding my academic credentials either. The focus on this topic is AUAP, basically Sorbon, and not me!All I am trying to do here is provide information on the legitimacy of AUAP and Sorbon, according to the French education official's emails attached above.

[carladelpon]

Mr. Hill did you or did you not sent several requests to AUAP to legitimize a non accredited university?

Did you or did you not ask by phone and letters many times AUAP to evaluate those bogus degrees?

Were you mad at AUAP because they refunded your friend and refused to establish an evaluation because the University was not accredited?
In this instance AUAP seems to be on the high road and you on the diploma mill way...

YES or NO ?

Do you sign your Email with the following "humble" signature :

Professor Robert Ray Hill, DBA, Graduateship (GCGI) in Leadership & Management
FCMI, MBCS, MInstLM, Hon FBMA, CDBA, Academician...


Case closed..:crazy2:

[ray1212]

:cuss:Dear carladelpon,

You are amazing!!! You are a newbie in this forum with only four or five prior posts. You posted twice in the Sorbon and Cambridge thread and two in this one. I would suggest that your post in the Sorbon and Cambridge thread regarding not seeing the broken links to the new Sorbon website is because I wrote Dr. Prade to show him how stupid his webmaster was in copying the Cambridge hyperlinks. Is that correct? What interest do you have in AUAP or Sorbon? Do you also hold credentials from Sorbon or trying to minimize the recent news regarding them?

There is nothing a matter from having an unaccredited degree, as long as it is legally licensed to issue degrees. I hear QUB is at least licensed as an educational institution in the Netherlands, so why are you busting their chops? Sorbon is definately not licensed either in France as I have shown or in the State of Florida. This makes them a degree mill.

:crazy2:Maybe you would like to supply your background here for other forums members to see. At least everyone has an idea who I am. And I am at least trying to set the record straight regarding my previous support of this entity. But I know the truth now regarding AUAP amd Sorbon.

I am not posting under an anonymous name like you Sir. Who are you carladelpon? It has been real fun!!

[carladelpon]

:cuss:Dear carladelpon,



There is nothing a matter from having an unaccredited degree, as long as it is legally licensed to issue degrees. I hear QUB is at least licensed as an educational institution in the Netherlands, so why are you busting their chops? Sorbon is definately not licensed either in France as I have shown or in the State of Florida. This makes them a degree mill.

Maybe you would like to supply your background here for other forums members to see. At least everyone has an idea who I am. And I am at least trying to set the record straight regarding my previous support of this entity. But I know the truth now regarding AUAP amd Sorbon.

[/B]

Dear Mr. Hill,

You seem to have a personal "vendetta", as we say in my country of origin, with AUAP as they refused to validate a questionable degree of one of your friend. According to you "it comes from an non accredited university which can be licensed from the Netherlands". It seems very fishy to me as you probably know that education is not for the moment run by Brussels European Commission but by each country.

If I am right you hate AUAP because it was strict in its judgment and refunded your friend.



I am Italian, my name is Carla I have a Laurea from the University la Sapienza di Roma and live in France. In Italy I am called "Dottoressa" but it is not right,as it is a 4 year degree...(you certainly do not understand my title modesty)

I checked de Sorbon is a registered French private institution of Higher education. Contrary to what you no there are no licensing procedure in France. Here is the code no license are ever granted for private education.[

I prove it:
Art L731-1
Tout Français ou tout ressortissant d'un autre Etat membre de la Communauté européenne ou d'un autre Etat partie à l'accord sur l'espace économique européen, âgé de vingt-cinq ans, n'ayant encouru aucune des incapacités prévues par l'article L. 731-7, ainsi que les associations formées légalement dans un dessein d'enseignement supérieur, peuvent ouvrir librement des cours et des établissements d'enseignement supérieur, aux seules conditions prescrites par le présent titre.

Regards

[ray1212]

:)Dear Carla,

Let me address you personally. I have no problem against the French VAE system of education. I am very much in favor of the VAE law because it is the most progressive move in education this century. Universities in the United States will eventually lose their edge if they keep charging such high tuition to attend an institution of higher learning. In America, you can obtain tuition assistance in the form of grants (undergraduate only) and/or tuition assistance loans.

Accreditation was basically mandated following the passing of the Higher Education Act of 1965 and has caused tuition to skyrocket out of the range of the poor or middle class, causing many people to borrow to the tune of $40,000. to $100,000. to earn a Masters or a Doctorate degree. Accreditation has always been a voluntary process. Without mentioning names, many so called experts in distance learning had their own preferences for distance learning, which they now refer to as diploma mills.

So by the time you complete your graduate studies, you are trying to pay off student loans at the same time you are supporting a family and trying to stick money aside for your children to attend a university of their choosing.

Now to add insult to injury, the US Federal Government has passed legislation that says that the Social Security Administration (SSA) can collect your student debt after you finally think it is safe to retire. Try and live on the average SSA pension while paying back a hefty student loan debt. So I totally agree with the validation of experiential learning above the lower division of the undergraduate level.

The friend you keep referring to who is a graduate of QUB. He is a very competent manager/executive who has owned his own company for more than 30 years. He has more than ten employees working for him. I would say he has the experience of someone in their twenties who has spent two years working on their MBA. Plus he has an earned Bachelor, Masters and a PhD in his field of expertise.

What I am basically saying regarding Sorbon and AUAP is:

1.) Why doesn't any of the French government officials state Sorbon is legally allowed to issue degrees, despite the registration you listed in your post?

2.) Why are their degrees being mailed from Florida if they are indeed a French institution?

3.) And how would one explain the fact their emails are coming off the same Verizon server located in Texas, unless they are using the same offices as AUAP located in Sarasota?

Kindly review the following three Acrobat PDFs, especially on the emails from AUAP and Sorbon. Pay close attention to the Originating IP Addresses and you be the judge. And finally, you have got to laugh at the diploma being mailed, not once but twice from Florida, although it was supposedly coming from a French institution.

http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/Email_from_Dr._Jean_Prade.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/Email_from_Sorbon.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/AUAP_and_Sorbon_Mailings.pdf

Sincerely Yours,

[Dennis Ruhl]

:cuss:Dear carladelpon,

You are amazing!!! You are a newbie in this forum with only four or five prior posts. You posted twice in the Sorbon and Cambridge thread and two in this one.

Some newbies might actually be reborn carcasses from dying forums.

My objection to the Pseudo-Sorbon is granting degrees for no academic or at least no new academic work. If real French universities do it, I'd lump them in the same pile.

[Dennis Ruhl]

Has anyone figured out why Robert and Carla are arguing about. They seem to be parrying and thrusting while in total agreement. Try reading each other's posts.

[ray1212]

:cool:Dear Dennis,

You do believe in Senior Awards from the City and Guilds of London? Aren't they based largely on experiential learning, although formal education may be a prerequsite in many cases. Senior awardss are evaluated in the United States as equivalent to:

LCGI - Associates Degree

GCGI - Bachelors Honors Degree

MCGI - Masters Degree

FCGI - Doctorate (if you are lucky to get nomonated much less selected.)

Sincerely,

[ray1212]

:crazy2:Dear Dennis,

Just when I thought you may be getting nice. My whole purpose here is to tell the truth regarding AUAP and Sorbon. I once believed in them. I thought they were legitimate. Now I know they aren't!! Why would I try and prove they were not legally authorized to issue degrees, while at the same time continuing to claim or use my degree? Go figure...

[Dennis Ruhl]

City and Guilds - they're English, they must be good. God save the Queen. They don't offer academic degrees and most of what they do is by exam.

My feeling that someone who translates work experience into academic credit knows how things were done for the last 10 years. Academic students should be studying how things are to be done in the next 10 years.

I think using exams to determine university credit is fine. I think other shortcuts are not a geat idea.

[ray1212]

Quoted:

Dennis Ruhl
Senior Contributor
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 820
Rep Power: 2906


Re: AUAP in trouble with AACRAO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

City and Guilds - they're English, they must be good. God save the Queen. They don't offer academic degrees and most of what they do is by exam.

My feeling that someone who translates work experience into academic credit knows how things were done for the last 10 years. Academic students should be studying how things are to be done in the next 10 years.

I think using exams to determine university credit is fine. I think other shortcuts are not a geat idea.

I can tell what a "Geat" handle you have of the spell checker... :lol::lol:

[Dennis Ruhl]

:crazy2:Dear Dennis,

Just when I thought you may be getting nice. My whole purpose here is to tell the truth regarding AUAP and Sorbon. I once believed in them. I thought they were legitimate. Now I know they aren't!! Why would I try and prove they were not legally authorized to issue degrees, while at the same time continuing to claim or use my degree? Go figure...

I just don't understand what all the hubbub is about. I don't know about France, and who does, but in the real world just because something is not authorized in law doesn't make it illegal. Pseudo-Sorbon might even be legal but by my criteria, even if it is, it's awards are academically meaningless. At least write a thesis.

[Dennis Ruhl]

I can tell what a "Geat" handle you have of the spell checker... :lol::lol:

Dr. Bear;

I see you've raised debate to a new level. Congatulations.


Of course it's not a Geat idea - seems to be French.


Geat - a member of a Scandinavian people of southern Sweden to which the legendary hero Beowulf belonged

[ray1212]

:)Dear Dennis,

I am just kidding with you. Even though we disagree on some issues, I believe you post here instead of Degree Info or Degree Discussion because you believe in the value of alternative education. I know you worked hard completing your degrees from CCU. Like I told Carla in a previous post, I can't believe how expensive it costs to earn a degree in the United States. You may remember someone from a few years ago who bragged about cheating his entire way through an MBA program. I believe his name was C-plager (or something like that). Accreditation is not always synonymous with quality.

Why has accreditation been pushed so hard since around 1992 - 1995? I believe that the schools which are regionally or nationally accredited have pushed hard to raise the standard out of fear they were going to lose their financial a$$.

[Dennis Ruhl]

:)Dear Dennis,

I am just kidding with you. Even though we disagree on some issues, I believe you post here instead of Degree Info or Degree Discussion because you believe in the value of alternative education. I know you worked hard completing your degrees from CCU. Like I told Carla in a previous post, I can't believe how expensive it costs to earn a degree in the United States. You may remember someone from a few years ago who bragged about cheating his entire way through an MBA program. I believe his name was C-plager (or something like that). Accreditation is not always synonymous with quality.

Why has accreditation been pushed so hard since around 1992 - 1995? I believe that the schools which are regionally or nationally accredited have pushed hard to raise the standard out of fear they were going to lose their financial a$$.

Actually I post here because I was thown out of those slime pits. As I expound at length about their abberant behavior elsewhere, enough said.

The only reason I took the MBA and am taking the DBA from California Coast is cost. The combined program cost slightly less than $5,000 with payments of $100 monthly. I have 1 1/2 courses to do by the end of June which should be no problem. I could get an extension but would probably have to pay for it. The cheapest accredited distance business doctorate was around $30,000.

I honestly wasn't looking for an easy program. As I was self employed before the program and will be after I'm done and the degrees add nothing to my value, I simply chalk it up to personal interest.

Quality unaccredited schools used to have a lot more respect with many graduates teaching at accredited schools. I suspect part of the problem is that many brick and mortar schools have moved into distance learning and are competing with unaccredited programs. It's always about the money.

[Little Arminius]

:)Dear Dennis,

I am just kidding with you. Even though we disagree on some issues, I believe you post here instead of Degree Info or Degree Discussion because you believe in the value of alternative education. I know you worked hard completing your degrees from CCU. Like I told Carla in a previous post, I can't believe how expensive it costs to earn a degree in the United States. You may remember someone from a few years ago who bragged about cheating his entire way through an MBA program. I believe his name was C-plager (or something like that). Accreditation is not always synonymous with quality.

Why has accreditation been pushed so hard since around 1992 - 1995? I believe that the schools which are regionally or nationally accredited have pushed hard to raise the standard out of fear they were going to lose their financial a$$.

Doc,

You are one of the public leaders of higher educational alternatives. I'm a believer in alternatives in higher education, too - the thing is that they have to be legitimate efforts to provide an education comparable to the university level. Coursework, as it may be, from bogus entities like Sorbon or IUFS run by your 90 year-old Russian pal are not legitimate educational institutions. If you want to create a university largely in cyberspace a la Knightsbridge University, fine. According to Dr. Neil Hayes and Quinn Tyler Jackson, both honorable men and respected members of various DL fora, Knightsbridge has a system that consists of real academics (from various international institutions) with real degrees who act as a dissertation committee. The advisor also provides real feedback and counsel. To me that sounds like true alternative education. Time will tell if the mainstream academic world will accept Knightsbridge U.

Attending luncheons and conferences, handing out and receiving degrees, and posts about the degree itself without a mention of the coursework or diss, sounds like bull**it. Sorry for being so blunt but it's true. In the real academic world, a thesis or a dissertation is an arduous journey to be undertaken, not a farce that can be negotiated for a fee.

I want to be clear that while I'm open-minded about legitimate educational alternatives with reasonable standards, I'm firmly opposed to mills and frauds. I know that your big complaint is about the cost but my experiences in life have basically taught me that you get what you pay for.

[ray1212]

Dear Little Arminius,

Greetings and Good Evening. I no longer use the IUFS DBA. That doesn't mean that I don't have another doctorate nor am I unappreciative of where I have been. I believe in the concept of experiential learning. And so does many other foreign universities as well as those in France.

I take strong exception to your comments regarding that 90 year old Russian. Prefessor Eduard Evreinov is one of the most distinguished gentlemen I have ever met. He won the Lenen Prize in 1966 for mathematics, which is the second highest honor in the Soviet Union at the time. How many scientists can state that? I know many of you have a hard time with the concept of a Grand PhD, but largely because of his efforts, many of the universities in Russia have adopted the concept. He has spent more than 1.5 million dollars of his money on developing the four tier global education system and WIDU is recognized by many Ministries of Education.

I will leave you guessing about my academic background for now. Take care.

[Little Arminius]

Ray,

Three quick points:

1. Evreinov has a distinguished academic background as a researcher, theorist and professor but no experience running a university, let alone a start-up school that exists largely online. The analogy that comes to mind would be for a prominent surgeon to start up a new hospital. That makes no sense and neither does the Evreinov-lead "school."

2. Again, contrasting IUFS with an established unaccredited school like Knightsbridge U., how was doctoral and Grand PhD work going to be supervised and evaluated? Does (or did) IUFS have its own faculty or were they going to work out an arrangement to use outside faculty to work on doctoral committees? This is the real nuts and bolts of legitimate academic institutions.

3. People who have earned a legitimate doctorate don't leave it to others to guess what field the doctorate was in. They proudly tell anyone who asks and there is no guessing as to field. The extensive number of peer reviewed articles and other publications quickly identify the discipline and probably specialty.

I bid you a good evening.

[ray1212]

:twisted:My question is:

If Sorbon still wants to claim they are legal in France to issue degrees, why don't they take legal action against the French officials that issued these damning emails? Dr. Jean Prade is a former Judge of the Paris Court, so I believe he has the capability of obtaining a legal decision in this matter as he did in the matter before AACRAO.

[Rector]

The King of France long time ego under the pressure of Rome among other reasons decreed in law that there is a room in education to private institutes.
As long as they don't award degrees specified under the law.

Some very prestigious universities, Ecoles elected for religious or academic freedom to remain private and not be limited by national ministry of education
as the law permits such a freedom.

Such private Ecoles earned in their hundreds of ears existence recognition in France and diploma from such Ecole is well respected in France.
Foreign students and graduates report that they have problems getting such diplomas recognized in their home country.
Number of Private Ecoles elected to get recognized by the National Ministry for reasons of EU laws on recognition and mobility of the diploma holders and be eligible to be listed among recognized universities and also get some funding.
These that elected to remain independent 100% rely on their long history and earned reputation, or in some case world wide Jesuit network for example. Reputation is everything for such providers. They have usually long history of academic achievement.

But the law like it or not also allows for smaller and new private Ecoles. As long as they elect to be under such law and comply fully with statues and NOT to award degrees mentioned by the law. They are permitted to operate and more than that they enjoy protection under such law.
For these operations reputation is everything but also compliance with the law. Like any law it can be stretched to its limits. Once broken such operations will lose their business license.
There are other new laws that also can be applied.

Long story short:
Private Ecole is not required to apply to National Ministry for Recognition.
There is history of call it jealousy or hatrige from government bureaucrats toward such institutes.
They can't control them so they secretly and some openly hate them.
Other act as guardians and defenders of the Franch education system and feel this are diploma mills or substandard schools that have no room in the education providers but they have no power over the protected by law Ecoles.

If they could they would shut down Sorbone and Admas etc but they can't.

[ray1212]

:)Dear Rector,

Thanks for your post. If that is the case, I wonder why Dr. Prade and Sorbon don't file suit against the government bureaucrats for sending me those emails. Then you have certain states that continue to publish information to the contrary also. I want the truth tocome out here. Maybe we could have Alain Michal enlighten us further regardiing the matter. Everyone have a Nice Day!

[Rector]

I think every legal action has consequences.
Why should they go after some emails that a person can deny sending it in the first place? Also are they really hurting from this unofficial statements?

As far as state in US well some states also black list other state licensed education providers on the same criteria they don't look favorably on such private providers without some recognized QA oversight.

AACRAO and AUAP was a major issue for AUAP it was a different matter.

Lets say they will initiate action against some governmental institution then what?
There could be judgement in their favor or against it.
If there is a judgement against them then there is a need to change etc.
At the moment the law can be interpreted and stretched in many ways.
I think they are smart by not making large waves.

My recommendation to such school is for the benefit of its graduates to look for a better recognition so the graduates can enjoy recognition and have better utility of their diploma. Specially is states like Nevada, TX and MD.

[morleyl]

I guess this whole thing just goes around in a circle.

First question is to get a letter stating legality of the school. In my opinion and from basic facts they seem to be legal. Email is not a valid basis to prove such.

What I would question is their process of granting degrees. Vae is fine and great but are they really adding anything to VAE?

They would need to make a case to me if I was living in France to use them to complete the degree.

Thats where the conversation makes sense..

[ray1212]

:crazy2:Take a look at the new Sorbon website http://sorbon.fr. Now place your cursor over the name "Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon". You will see the name University of Saint Martin appear. Very interesting... At least Cambridge isn't there anymore...:lol::lol:

[Dennis Ruhl]

:crazy2:Take a look at the new Sorbon website http://sorbon.fr. Now place your cursor over the name "Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon". You will see the name University of Saint Martin appear. Very interesting... At least Cambridge isn't there anymore...:lol::lol:

I don't have your magic touch - I couldn't see it. Something wrong with the University of St. Martin?

I actually looked at the Sorbon website and it looks interesting. Let's see. I have at least 24years of accounting experience divided at 3 for 1 into academic years equally 8. That's a PhD. If you threw a couple hundred page project on top of that to prove you weren't illiterate, maybe there is something to it. I like some new work

[ray1212]

Hey Dennis,

It's there. Just place your cursor slightly at the bottom of the name. Maybe it is a fluke. Are you using Windows Internet Explorer 7? I hope you can see it. I just checked it again. Have a Good One. By the way, there is nothing wrong with University of Saint Martin.

[Rector]

I just visited their new web site.

I went to the faculty and I'm surprised by only USA faculty.
For French university even if its international in scope I would expect some French faculty.
http://www.sorbon.fr/enseignants.html

Once long time ego I concedered this institute but at that time their conection to some islands and also all email was coming from AUAP as Mr. Hill mentioned.
In their first months of existance I got all replies from Jean P of AUAP.
Also they had an outfit in USA.

It had then to many red flags for me.
But I always remained positive outlook for them.
I wish they done more work on the official recognition on national level.
But I also respect their freedom to remain private.
And they are very afordible.

[Rector]

Some law interpreted badly but good to know


Article L731-1 En savoir plus sur cet article..
Every Frenchman or every national of another Member State of the European Community or another State party in agreement on the twenty - five-year-European, old economic space, having incurred none of the inability envisaged by the article L. 731-7, as well as associations formed legally in a design of higher education, can open freely lessons and establishments of higher education, on the only conditions prescribed by the present title.

---------------------------


Associations formed to create and maintain lessons or establishments of higher education have to establish a statement pointing out names, occupations and domiciles of the founders and managers of aforementioned associations, place of their meetings and statutes which have to govern them.

This statement must be made:

1 ° To The rector;

2 ° To The representative of the State in the department;

3 ° To The public prosecutor of the courtyard of the spring or to the prosecutor of the Republic.
The complete list of the associates, with their domicile, must be in the office of the association and announced the Office of Public Prosecutor in any conscription of the public prosecutor.

--------------------------------------------
Article L731-4
The statement prescribed by the article L. 731-3 must be signed by the managers above indicated; she points out their names, qualities and domiciles, the seat and the statutes of the establishment as well as other enunciation were mentioned in the article L. 731-3. In the event of death or of retirement of one of the managers, he must be gone about things in his replacement within six months
---------------------------------------------------------

Article L731-5
The establishments of higher education opened in accordance with the article L. 731-4, and understanding at least the same number of professors endowed with the rank of doctor as the establishments of the State which count least jobs of professors of universities, can take the name of free faculty, followed by the indication of their speciality, if they belong to individuals or to associations.

-------------------------------
Article L731-6 En to know more about this article...
For the faculties of letters, sciences and right, the statement mentioned in the article L. 731-4 must establish that aforementioned faculties have rooms of lesson, sufficient conferences and of job for hundred students at least and special library.

If it is about a faculty of sciences, he must be established, besides, that it has laboratories of physical appearance and chemistry, of offices of physical appearance and natural history in rappo


-----------------------------------

L731-7
Functions of manager or professor in an establishment of private higher education are unable to open a lesson and to fill:
The not dependent foreigners of a Member State of the European Community or another State party in agreement on the European economic space can be authorized to open lessons or to aim establishments of higher education deprived after opinion of the academical advice of state education.
The not dependent foreigners of a Member State of the European Community or another State party in agreement on the European economic space can be authorized to open lessons or to aim establishments of higher education deprived after opinion of the academical advice of state education.
---------------------------------------------------
9

Any offence of articles L. 731-2 in L. 731-7 am punished of [*taux *] 3750 euro of penalty.

Is punishable by this trouble:

1 ° The author of lesson, in the case envisaged in the article L. 731-3;

2 ° The managers or, failing regularly constituted managers, the organizers, in cases envisaged by articles L. 731-2, L. 731-4 and L. 731-6;

3 ° Every professor who taught in violation of the dispositions of the article L. 731-7.
-------------------------

731-9 10

Any offence of articles L. 731-2 in L. 731-7 am punished of [*taux *] 3750 euro of penalty.

Is punishable by this trouble:

1 ° The author of lesson, in the case envisaged in the article L. 731-3;

2 ° The managers or, failing regularly constituted managers, the organizers, in cases envisaged by articles L. 731-2, L. 731-4 and L. 731-6;

3 ° Every professor who taught in violation of the dispositions of the article L. 731-7.
------------------------

When statements made in accordance with articles L. 731-3 and L. 731-4 point out as professor a person hit by inability or contain the mention of a subject opposite to public order or to public decency, the prosecutor of the Republic can form opposition in the ten days. Opposition is notified to the person who made statement.

Request in mainlevée is formed in front of the court of competent jurisdiction, either by statement written at the foot of notification, or by act

-------------------------
L. 731-12
In case of condemnation for offence made in a lesson, the court can pronounce the closing of lesson.

Chase draws away the interim suspension of lesson; affair is carried in the most next audience.
----------------------------------

I. - lessons or private establishments of higher education are always opened and approachable to the delegates of the charged Minister of Advanced Education.

Surveillance can concern education only to prove if it is not opposite to morality, to Constitution and to laws.

II. - fact to refuse to submit to surveillance, such as her is prescribed in I, is punished of [*taux *] 3750 euro of penalty.

In case of repetition in the course of the year which follows the prison

------------------------------------------
Article L731-14 En savoir plus sur cet article...
Modifié par Ordonnance n°2000-916 du 19 septembre 2000 - art. 3 (V) JORF 22 septembre 2000 en vigueur le 1er janvier 2002

The private establishments of higher education can take the title of universities under no circumstances. The certificates of studies which they judge there to award to the pupils cannot carry the titles of baccalaureate, licence or doctorate.

Fact, for the representative for an establishment to give the title of university this one or to make award hitting certificates the title of baccalaureate, licence or doctorate, is punished of [*taux *] 30000 euro of penalty.

----------------

The dispositions of articles L. 443-2 in L. 443-4 are applicable to the schools of the upper technical education deprived.

----------------------------

[carladelpon]

This is a very serious posting.Thank you!

From what I see the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon had fulfilled all the obligations mentioned as they are still in business for 4 years.

FYI The article 731-14 is much longer (14 boring sub-articles).

French Private Institutions of higher education can not take the word "université" but takes most of the time they have the name "Ecole" or "Institut" like the prestigious one like HEC (Ecole des Hautes Etudes Commerciale), Ecole Nationale d'Administration (ENA). ESSEC (Ecole Supérieure des Sciences Economiques et Commerciales), which are the number one in France in their specialty.:cool:

[morleyl]

Somehow these debates always end up on some trivial stuff as oppose to real hard core issues.

In respect to converting experience into credit, some would dispute that you need to show new work to prove that you deserve the title. I think the work would be involved to prove the competence, this is why I think Sorbon should have both thesis and interview to be credible.

[Dennis Ruhl]

I think the work would be involved to prove the competence, this is why I think Sorbon should have both thesis and interview to be credible.

I couldn't agree more.

[ray1212]

:)Dear moreyl,

Only evaluating new experience towards credit kind of defeats the whole point of the VAE in France. :cool: If Sorbon is legal, they need to stop issuing degrees from Florida and mailing them using the US Postal System.

[Rector]

Not all experience is convertible.

My aunt Sonia works on car wash as a cashier for 18 years.
She is in her 60's now.

She can get MBA in sales :-)

But a technician who gradually moved in to lets say systems technologist or engineer and all the years made progress that he can document is a good candidate for BS or even MS in Systems Technology by VAE etc.

What you pay for degree at Robert Sorbone you will pay for one class 3 unit portfolio at US Accredited collage.

Robert Hill a question to you.

When you say degrees are sent from Florida do you mean they are on the diploma state that awarded in Florida USA etc?

Or simply use Florida as shipping source?

[Rector]

This is a very serious posting.Thank you!

From what I see the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon had fulfilled all the obligations mentioned as they are still in business for 4 years.

FYI The article 731-14 is much longer (14 boring sub-articles).

French Private Institutions of higher education can not take the word "université" but takes most of the time they have the name "Ecole" or "Institut" like the prestigious one like HEC (Ecole des Hautes Etudes Commerciale), Ecole Nationale d'Administration (ENA). ESSEC (Ecole Supérieure des Sciences Economiques et Commerciales), which are the number one in France in their specialty.:cool:

Yes we understand this point very well.
In US we have MIT - Massachusetts Institute of Technology its name is not University but Institute as Cal Tech etc.

I do not understand the law really.
Some requirements are to provide lessons in physical school location with 100 students at-least and also libraries and laboratories.
Because Robert Sorbone is 100 % VAE I don't know how this all setelles in the yeyes of the law.
THis is why I think some areas are gray in my view and not understanding the law.

But a former Judge in France would know the law.

Maybe my opinion is biased because in the past I was AUAP customer and
also refereed others to them.
All whom I know are very happy with the services of AUAP.

Is Sorbonne Diplomas say it was issued in Florida or it is written issued in France do you know?

[ray1212]

:)Dear Rector,

The degrees were mailed from Florida. Thanks. Have a Nice Day!

http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/AUAP_and_Sorbon_Mailings.pdf

[Dew]

Well, if you pay extra $100...for an apostille on the degree, it might comes from France. Give it a try…

[Rector]

I don't think its important what country its mailed from.

I think what is important is if the degree / diploma states something like awarded in France in the year of our lord etc.
Or there is no mention at all about the origin of the degree?

I forgot do they provide transcript / supplement to their diplomas?
And if the supplement has the address of the institute in France?

Can anyone post pdf of their diploma and supplement to satisfy my curiosity?
Thanks

[morleyl]

:)Dear Rector,

The degrees were mailed from Florida. Thanks. Have a Nice Day!

http://www.geocities.com/roberthill20/AUAP_and_Sorbon_Mailings.pdf

That is a none issue, unless you can prove its illegal to do so. If they are following the laws of their incorporation and charter then thats trivial.

Secondly, since they may do work mostly with English speaking people, a US presence could help.

The point I would have an issue with are.

1. If they denied doing any business from Florida etc.

2. If the French law prohibits them from doing so.

Bear in mind lots bigger companies use offshore incorporation to save on taxes and protection, so if they use French Law to solve a problem then nothing is wrong in that context.

My issue again is quality and quality control.

[James Grey]

That is a none issue, unless you can prove its illegal to do so. If they are following the laws of their incorporation and charter then thats trivial.

Secondly, since they may do work mostly with English speaking people, a US presence could help.

The point I would have an issue with are.

1. If they denied doing any business from Florida etc.

2. If the French law prohibits them from doing so.

Bear in mind lots bigger companies use offshore incorporation to save on taxes and protection, so if they use French Law to solve a problem then nothing is wrong in that context.

My issue again is quality and quality control.

Just out of interest, are you a direct descendant of St Thomas?

[morleyl]

Just out of interest, are you a direct descendant of St Thomas?

What exactly are you asking? Not sure of your question. From your previous posting it does not seem like logic is part of your toolbox anyway.

To make my position clear, I do support conversion of non-traditional learning into academic credits as long as its done in a quality way.

If you have not attended one of the top 10 universities in the world then keep quiet.

[Dennis Ruhl]

What exactly are you asking? Not sure of your question. From your previous posting it does not seem like logic is part of your toolbox anyway.



Thomas would be indicative of doubt. I don't get it either.

[James Grey]

What exactly are you asking? Not sure of your question. From your previous posting it does not seem like logic is part of your toolbox anyway.

To make my position clear, I do support conversion of non-traditional learning into academic credits as long as its done in a quality way.

If you have not attended one of the top 10 universities in the world then keep quiet.

Doubting most people seems your main stock in trade - this time it is RSU :D

[morleyl]

Doubting most people seems your main stock in trade - this time it is RSU :D

Anyway, to restrain myself, I would say you are a waste of time.. Not sure whats your intellectual input to this discussion really is.

[James Grey]

Anyway, to restrain myself, I would say you are a waste of time.. Not sure whats your intellectual input to this discussion really is.

I understand that, as it requires a double digit IQ:rolleyes:

[Little Arminius]

Dear Little Arminius,

Greetings and Good Evening. I no longer use the IUFS DBA. That doesn't mean that I don't have another doctorate nor am I unappreciative of where I have been. I believe in the concept of experiential learning. And so does many other foreign universities as well as those in France.

I take strong exception to your comments regarding that 90 year old Russian. Prefessor Eduard Evreinov is one of the most distinguished gentlemen I have ever met. He won the Lenen Prize in 1966 for mathematics, which is the second highest honor in the Soviet Union at the time. How many scientists can state that? I know many of you have a hard time with the concept of a Grand PhD, but largely because of his efforts, many of the universities in Russia have adopted the concept. He has spent more than 1.5 million dollars of his money on developing the four tier global education system and WIDU is recognized by many Ministries of Education.

I will leave you guessing about my academic background for now. Take care.

from degreediscussion.com thread (http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5544); Dr. George Gollin quotes the footer of one Dr. Robert Ray Hill's correspondence:

Professor Robert Ray Hill, PhD, DBA,
FCMI, MBCS, GCGI, MInstLM, Hon FBMA, CDBA, Academician
3149A Dixie Highway, PMB # 106
Erlanger, KY 41018
(859) 307-2703 - Cell
(859) 648-0121 or Skype Username - robert.ray.hill


Ray,

I thought that you were no longer using the DBA? Set the record straight once and for all. You telling us one thing here, another at DL Truth and yet another in private correspondence with Dr. Gollin is troubling, to say the least.

[Rector]

Thats what I understand from reading the reply is that the DBA listed is from another university.

Some states list some schools as eligal for their degrees to be used, some schools are later additions to such list. Also schools including accredited and legitimate may with time have negative press, scandals etc or loose accreditation.
So one has option to drop such degree from his/hers CV.

[Little Arminius]

Thats what I understand from reading the reply is that the DBA listed is from another university.

Some states list some schools as eligal for their degrees to be used, some schools are later additions to such list. Also schools including accredited and legitimate may with time have negative press, scandals etc or loose accreditation.
So one has option to drop such degree from his/hers CV.

I'm fairly open-minded about alternative education. I don't look unfavorably on NA schools and am willing to look at unaccredited schools on an individual basis. However, I have a problem with the notion that one can easily "drop" schools/degrees from a CV. You either legitimately took coursework and earned a degree from a bona fide school, regardless of accreditation status, or you didn't.

If you find yourself in one of those jurisdictions that proscribe the use of an unaccredited degree, or simply wish note the school's lack of accreditation, then keep it on your CV but put it in another section (training, further education, etc) or prominently identify that the school is unaccredited. That may suck but is part of the package you have bought into when you choose an unaccredited school. If you think you can easily drop schools from your CV, then you probably believe that it wasn't legitimate in the first place.

[Rector]

Yes and no.

If you are a victim of scam or simply uninformed and made bad decision based on false advertising or misrepresentation of facts or simply having no understanding in accreditation meters in other countries, and you did work for the degree or more than that.
If your school fully accredited but has bad reputation and had scandals and you are ashamed and rather not associate your self with such entity its your right
to disassociate from them.

If I had to state on my resume all I learned and all I worked on it will be easily a 6 page resume, So I select what to submit to the potential employer.
In a form of providing what is relevant for the position I apply for.

What you rather had a person use a substandard degree on his resume to get a job?

And this is honest and legit.

[alam_bakshi]

You wouldn't believe how many EE's and ME's I have had to train to use a computer or even put one together, and all I had was a lowly BS for ITT.

OF course I also had my first computer at the age of 12, which i promptly took apart two days after I got it. :p

Dear sir,

Your opion is very approprate at this movement,but a skilled person,which has not appropate degree qualification,causes many times humilation,I think once a person have high skill must have proper degree support/academic.As have LCGI award but this award is not accrediated in Indian and other countries,but I have so may skilles,computer knolwage,electrical supervisory,graphc designing capabilities,which I think the BS degrees holders not compaired with my skill.
So, why people beleve in academic approch.

[Rector]

The society today is degree and qualification society.
So yes people judge by education and credentials etc. It is also
competitive society, people compete for better jobs or even in the dating scene when people are looking for mate the education and degree play a role.

In USA there are ways to earn degree fast. If a person is skilled and has lots of knowledge they can test out and earn substantial credit toward a degree.
Take additional classes and earn a degree.

Your statement about LCGI is not accurate. LCGI is recognized in India for employment as Technician or Sr Technician what is happening is that some people think this is more than technician but it is not.

LCGI is not accepted in INdia as academic credit to university and this is not just in India it is in many countries because it is not a degree.
It is good for work and job for a person who is advanced or master technician or craftsman.

Some managers when they hire a person and see 4 year degree think that this person has discipline to stay out of trouble and accomplice from start to end a number of assignments , courses, projects etc.
Also the degreed person equipped with new skills, critical thinking, communication skills, writing skills, analytical skills etc.
In degrees such as Engineering there are many important theoretical and practical learning takes place in the university that no work place can realy provide.
So the foundation is there. I can go on and on but there are reasons for this.

I think whit your many years of experience and knowledge you can apply for GCGI. this will be evaluated as equivalent to Bachelors degree.
GCGI has a better recognition then the LCGI.

If you been in USA then you could take GRE, DANTES, and other advance tests and earn university credit for them. This would easily translate to number of years in university and then you can have this used to apply to DL university to complete degree.

The big 4 would be a way to go for you.

I think its still can be done.

http://bain4weeks.com/

Contact

[morleyl]

Wow.. Haven't posted on here in awhile..

I think both the LCGI and GCGI can be useful one you get an evaluation from reputable body upfront to show the level. LCGI would be associates level in that case.

Interestingly, UK universities will accept the GCGI for graduate work but in North America maybe more difficult with big name schools.