A Purely Hypothetical Question

[James Grey]

Some of us were discussing academics, competency and degrees last night. All of us are either in educational research, teaching or workplace training and assessment, and are holders of accredited qualifications in teaching and our professional areas of expertise to at least masters levels. I simply state this to clarify the underlying interest in the question that follows.

Let me very clear on one point - I am not wishing to get involved in a detailed and circular discussion cum argument about any deemed-true-masquerading VAE institution.

The question put to me, which I said I would refer to this group for discussion, is which unaccredited university is best, or presents the least risk, for issuing a degree based entirely on life experience for a professional person, say and engineer, lawyer or an IT guru, who has extensive experience of >20 years, and is accepted based on an examination of that experience for professional association membership and State/Professional Licensing Board Registration?

Maybe a crazy question? ... but considering the persons professional competence is already clearly established and they are Licensed to practice in their field, and their 'training' has been mentored under a non award/degree apprenticeship type program that still exists in many Commonwealth countries....? An example both in Australia and UK is that of lawyer who may not have a law degree yet has the same status professionally as one who has a law degree; another is the case of a professional engineer in both countries. In UK one can become a Chartered Accountant with a totally unrelated degree, and so on. In that case the person is a Chartered Accountant, Auditor and at the peak of his professional tree - so clearly competence is beyond any doubt. What Institution would you select in this case for a degree based entirely on experience?

[Robert J.]

Some of us were discussing academics, competency and degrees last night. All of us are either in educational research, teaching or workplace training and assessment, and are holders of accredited qualifications in teaching and our professional areas of expertise to at least masters levels. I simply state this to clarify the underlying interest in the question that follows.

Let me very clear on one point - I am not wishing to get involved in a detailed and circular discussion cum argument about any deemed-true-masquerading VAE institution.

The question put to me, which I said I would refer to this group for discussion, is which unaccredited university is best, or presents the least risk, for issuing a degree based entirely on life experience for a professional person, say and engineer, lawyer or an IT guru, who has extensive experience of >20 years, and is accepted based on an examination of that experience for professional association membership and State/Professional Licensing Board Registration?

Maybe a crazy question? ... but considering the persons professional competence is already clearly established and they are Licensed to practice in their field, and their 'training' has been mentored under a non award/degree apprenticeship type program that still exists in many Commonwealth countries....? An example both in Australia and UK is that of lawyer who may not have a law degree yet has the same status professionally as one who has a law degree; another is the case of a professional engineer in both countries. In UK one can become a Chartered Accountant with a totally unrelated degree, and so on. In that case the person is a Chartered Accountant, Auditor and at the peak of his professional tree - so clearly competence is beyond any doubt. What Institution would you select in this case for a degree based entirely on experience?

The problem I see is that the ones that exist and let's say for sake of argument are at least legal, the professional qualifications are still better, more respected, and a step ahead of these unaccredited VAE type of schools, so why bother?

As much as I'd like to, I really can't think of any that would be "safe", none of French VAE schools have any clarity as to their status, Liberian Accred...ehem...The rest would be Business Incorporated schools in other strange countries and rocks in some ocean.

If your friend willing to do some work, maybe there's some middle road for him/her. Like entrance to an American accelerated MBA program that he/she can do in 12-15months or even some other online Master's that is in the 30 unit range. This can prove he/she was ready for graduate level work, the award is fairly quick, and he/she will also learn something too I'm sure and the degree will be far more legitimate.

[dhfr]

Why does this person want a degree if she/he already has the necessary professional credentials, memberships, registration, etc?

Is it merely credentialism?

Or is there some more substantial reason?

[George Brown]

I don't know of one recognised university that would confer a post-graduate degree based entirely on prior *life experience.

*life experience - valid evidence of prior professional work, volunteer work etc. which demonstrates current competence and is used as credit towards the conferral of a qualification.

Cheers,

George

PS - If there is one, please tell me, I would be very interested.

[Rector]

Some of us were discussing academics, competency and degrees last night. All of us are either in educational research, teaching or workplace training and assessment, and are holders of accredited qualifications in teaching and our professional areas of expertise to at least masters levels. I simply state this to clarify the underlying interest in the question that follows.

Let me very clear on one point - I am not wishing to get involved in a detailed and circular discussion cum argument about any deemed-true-masquerading VAE institution.

The question put to me, which I said I would refer to this group for discussion, is which unaccredited university is best, or presents the least risk, for issuing a degree based entirely on life experience for a professional person, say and engineer, lawyer or an IT guru, who has extensive experience of >20 years, and is accepted based on an examination of that experience for professional association membership and State/Professional Licensing Board Registration?

Maybe a crazy question? ... but considering the persons professional competence is already clearly established and they are Licensed to practice in their field, and their 'training' has been mentored under a non award/degree apprenticeship type program that still exists in many Commonwealth countries....? An example both in Australia and UK is that of lawyer who may not have a law degree yet has the same status professionally as one who has a law degree; another is the case of a professional engineer in both countries. In UK one can become a Chartered Accountant with a totally unrelated degree, and so on. In that case the person is a Chartered Accountant, Auditor and at the peak of his professional tree - so clearly competence is beyond any doubt. What Institution would you select in this case for a degree based entirely on experience?

If the award is from UK than its equivalent to degree
from accredited university.

Now also there is rout to earn world recognized Sr award from C&GI. theur Grqaduationship is BA/BS
equivalent and MCGI award is equivalent to Masters degree.
Now C&GI is fully accredited.

Many NACES member evaluation agencies will award equivalency to such award.


Rector

[James Grey]

The problem I see is that the ones that exist and let's say for sake of argument are at least legal, the professional qualifications are still better, more respected, and a step ahead of these unaccredited VAE type of schools, so why bother?

As much as I'd like to, I really can't think of any that would be "safe", none of French VAE schools have any clarity as to their status, Liberian Accred...ehem...The rest would be Business Incorporated schools in other strange countries and rocks in some ocean.

If your friend willing to do some work, maybe there's some middle road for him/her. Like entrance to an American accelerated MBA program that he/she can do in 12-15months or even some other online Master's that is in the 30 unit range. This can prove he/she was ready for graduate level work, the award is fairly quick, and he/she will also learn something too I'm sure and the degree will be far more legitimate.

1. There is not any 'friend', and it is not a veiled personal question :o
2. It is purely hypothetical in an absolute sense.
3. Admittedly an acadmeic qualification e.g. JD or MBA[Acc] leads respectively to aan attorneys license and a CPA license, but that is not the point of the query.

The group was looking at the education process in reverse. Lets look at 2 examples:

1. Someone say in London has a BSc[Econ] and then becomes a lawyer by the 'apprenticeship/articles' route which does not result in a degree. Later they become a QC. They are at the top of the professional tree. They 'want' as opposed to 'need' a degree. No coursework or research is required in any sense, so they could get a degree totally by assessment of experience without any doubts at all. It is not a case of a degree then professional license ... totally the reverse.

2. Another Londoner has been an 'engineer' since Adam played football for Jerusalem. One of the professional bodies duly assesses his competence and admits him to professional memebrship and the Engineering Council in UK duly issues him with his 'CEng'. Then he seeks 'academic' recognition of his 100%++ verified competencies.

As I said we decided to exclude the French VAE options, and I agreed to submit this for consideration. This group as I said at the start have advanced academic as well as professional qualifications so it doesn't apply to any of them ... it is simply hypothetical.

[James Grey]

Why does this person want a degree if she/he already has the necessary professional credentials, memberships, registration, etc?

Is it merely credentialism?

Or is there some more substantial reason?

Let's say simply for the hell of it.

[James Grey]

I don't know of one recognised university that would confer a post-graduate degree based entirely on prior *life experience.

*life experience - valid evidence of prior professional work, volunteer work etc. which demonstrates current competence and is used as credit towards the conferral of a qualification.

Cheers,

George

PS - If there is one, please tell me, I would be very interested.

We are also interested and hence the disucssion which came from your talk over here recently. I pointed out what you have said. The disucssion was about a first degree, not a postgraduate one - a degree that really acknowledged competencies at a level less than could be demonstrated.

So ruling out accredited places, the next 'option' would be unaccredited. In that instance which one is the least dangerous?

I think that it is an interesting question and is the reverse to what we usually encounter.

[James Grey]

If the award is from UK than its equivalent to degree
from accredited university.

Now also there is rout to earn world recognized Sr award from C&GI. theur Grqaduationship is BA/BS
equivalent and MCGI award is equivalent to Masters degree.
Now C&GI is fully accredited.

Many NACES member evaluation agencies will award equivalency to such award.


Rector

Your comment "...if the award is from UK than its equivalent to degree
from accredited university...." is interesting Rector as it is almost word for word what 2 of the group said. Their argument is that there is NO risk no matter where the degree comes from as the degree relies on the prior competence clearly demonstrated over a long period of time.

I do think that this is different from a manager trying to prove he should get an "MBA" - but maybe I am wrong? Does anyone see it from the perspective we are looking at it from? I hope so ...

[Robert J.]

I'm not sure their argument is valid and that there is no "risk". Because the qualifications is substantiated based on the professional qualifications, it would be important perhaps even more than ever to have all other qualifications legitimate in appearance and substance.

[James Grey]

I'm not sure their argument is valid and that there is no "risk". Because the qualifications is substantiated based on the professional qualifications, it would be important perhaps even more than ever to have all other qualifications legitimate in appearance and substance.

Maybe ... but just imagine the questions being asked:

1. Where did you get your engineering degree? Trinity

2. Which one? The one that Neil Hayes QSM of New Zealand used.

3. What work did you do for it? They accepted my CEng form UK which in any event requires a masters degree.

4. If any thing, it gives the degree some credit rather than the other way around.

Another instance -

1. Where did you get your accounting degree? Anstead.

2. Where is that located? In Malaysia and in UK and professor John Kersey a world wide noted musician is on their faculty.

3. What work did you do for it? None at all was required as they accepted my Fellowship of the Chartered Institute of Accountants as being more than is necessary to verify a first degree in Accounting.

4. Again - how can it detract from the reputation of the holder?

As I said before this is very different to Fred Nerk who has managed his own hot dog stand for 10 years getting his MBA from say Rushmore based on a 14 page double spaced thesis ...

[JKersey]

2. Where is that located? In Malaysia and in UK and professor John Kersey a world wide noted musician is on their faculty.

May I add a correction to your comment, Peter?

1. The institution with which I am associated is Ansted University. I am not just being picky - there is another institution called Amstead University which I regard as less than wonderful.
2. I have never been on the faculty of Ansted University. I am Honorary Representative for the UK and Honorary Member of Advisory Council.
3. Ansted enjoys co-operation with several recognized education providers in the UK, but it has no location there. Its administrative location is the Ansted Service Center in Penang, and a full campus in Malaysia is now in the planning stages.

Enjoy the discussion - back to work for me.

John

[James Grey]

May I add a correction to your comment, Peter?

1. The institution with which I am associated is Ansted University. I am not just being picky - there is another institution called Amstead University which I regard as less than wonderful.
2. I have never been on the faculty of Ansted University. I am Honorary Representative for the UK and Honorary Member of Advisory Council.
3. Ansted enjoys co-operation with several recognized education providers in the UK, but it has no location there. Its administrative location is the Ansted Service Center in Penang, and a full campus in Malaysia is now in the planning stages.

Enjoy the discussion - back to work for me.

John

My apologies - I was referring to Ansted.

Thanks for the correction.

[Dr Marianus]

I don't know of one recognised university that would confer a post-graduate degree based entirely on prior *life experience.

*life experience - valid evidence of prior professional work, volunteer work etc. which demonstrates current competence and is used as credit towards the conferral of a qualification.

Cheers,

George

PS - If there is one, please tell me, I would be very interested.

The MBA program at WGU is competency based:

http://www.wgu.edu/business/master_business_administration_degree.asp

As I understand their website, you can accelerate your program by proving your competency at each stage. In effect, that appears to mean you can test out of their MBA in its entirety. Testing out is familiar from the big three to the bachelor's level, but WGU have brought it up to the graduate level. If you accept that a COSC bachelor's program is life experience based, so is this one.

To reinforce the point made elsewhere on UK C&G qualifications, these are nationally accredited awards that will take you to the equivalent of a master's degree on the national framework through portfolio and interview routes. An MCGI award is the direct equivalent of a master's degree and is available entirely through evidenced life experience. The FCGI award is available beyond that level.

Dr Hayes, whom Peter mentioned above, is, amongst his other qualifications, a GCGI, which is the equivalent of a British honours degree.

[George Brown]

The MBA program at WGU is competency based:

http://www.wgu.edu/business/master_business_administration_degree.asp
As I understand their website, you can accelerate your program by proving your competency at each stage. In effect, that appears to mean you can test out of their MBA in its entirety. Testing out is familiar from the big three to the bachelor's level, but WGU have brought it up to the graduate level. If you accept that a COSC bachelor's program is life experience based, so is this one.

Thanks for that. I should have remembered these competency based MBAs by WGU. An interesting bit of info though regarding duration:

Most students who already possess several years of professional or management experience can complete the program in about 2 years. Progress is determined by passing the required assessments (not accumulating credits), so the time to completion varies from student to student. Talk to an Enrollment Counselor to explore your personal situation.

A competency based system is not based on time. They suggest it takes 2 years to complete the program and pass the assessments. This is therefore not what I would class as a purely competency based qualification. In addition, the requirement of tests suggest the need for new work. I wouldn't class this degree as therefore being a 'life experience' degree.

Cheers,

George

PS - Got the *^*& scared out of me when a voice said 'Welcome' and a pop-up screen appeared from a salesperson from WGU. Gee, talk about targeted advertising!!! They are obviously trawling their site, waiting for hits, then jumping on them. Phew!!!!

[James Grey]

Thanks for that. I should have remembered these competency based MBAs by WGU. An interesting bit of info though regarding duration:

Most students who already possess several years of professional or management experience can complete the program in about 2 years. Progress is determined by passing the required assessments (not accumulating credits), so the time to completion varies from student to student. Talk to an Enrollment Counselor to explore your personal situation.

A competency based system is not based on time. They suggest it takes 2 years to complete the program and pass the assessments. This is therefore not what I would class as a purely competency based qualification. In addition, the requirement of tests suggest the need for new work. I wouldn't class this degree as therefore being a 'life experience' degree.

Cheers,

George

PS - Got the *^*& scared out of me when a voice said 'Welcome' and a pop-up screen appeared from a salesperson from WGU. Gee, talk about targeted advertising!!! They are obviously trawling their site, waiting for hits, then jumping on them. Phew!!!!

I agree. As I have said to a reasonable response at James Crabb's site, these people will already have been assessed and benn examined, present portfolios and whatever is required. This is what a degree holder would have to fo for licensing and professional accreditation of their competencies. So that have already achieved what the degree would give them entry to - the CPA program, CEng process etc.

The argument they put up is that whetehr the degree is accredited or not is not an issue, as it is after the fact. I see their point in a sense, so if the choice has to be unaccredited, what is the list?

I realise that this is a 'wild' one, but it raises interesting considerations.

[Robert J.]

so if the choice has to be unaccredited, what is the list?



I don't think there is a list right now. Hypothetical person might be better off getting an IBC and granting himself his own degree and that be the only degree his school ever gives. Anything other than that still might have the risk of some exposure to bad publicity or other mill practices that is outside of their control.

Perhaps in a few years maybe some of those VAE schools might shake out or maybe Liberia might get their act together. Some country needs to offer a G.E.D. like test except for a Bachelor's degree.

If you think it is so risk free, just get an Almeda degree, see, that doesn't sound quite right does it?

[James Grey]

I don't think there is a list right now. Hypothetical person might be better off getting an IBC and granting himself his own degree and that be the only degree his school ever gives. Anything other than that still might have the risk of some exposure to bad publicity or other mill practices that is outside of their control.

Perhaps in a few years maybe some of those VAE schools might shake out or maybe Liberia might get their act together. Some country needs to offer a G.E.D. like test except for a Bachelor's degree.

If you think it is so risk free, just get an Almeda degree, see, that doesn't sound quite right does it?

Well, believe it or not, that was the suggestion that I put to them. Set up in a West Indies 'resort' as a University. It could be completely private, and also completely restricted to professional people with a need such as the 'hypotheticals'. It could NEVER be accused of issuing degrees in exchange for dollars and no work. You could have an alumni list of lawyers, engineers, accountants and so on, all very respectable, appropriately licensed and professionally accredited, and make that the criteria for award of a degree. There would be NO stigma of a TC&U, Almeda, KWU and so on, as each award would be 'after the fact', and there would never be a graduate that did not meet the same requirements at a regular accredited institution in a reliable jurisdiction.

Comments?

Best place to operate from?

[George Brown]

Best place to operate from?

Victoria? :crazy2:

Cheers,

George

[Dennis Ruhl]

Victoria?

Cheers,

George


Then you would have the 2nd school to flunk the Greenwich test. Or for that matter, take the Greenwich test.

[George Brown]

Then you would have the 2nd school to flunk the Greenwich test. Or for that matter, take the Greenwich test.

Yes, Dennis, of course, you are completely correct again.

Cheers,

George

[Dennis Ruhl]

Yes, Dennis, of course, you are completely correct again.



A cross I bear.

To clarify, has any other school been subjected to the accreditation procedure designed for Greenwich or did it have the singular purpose of closing Greenwich?

[Rector]

Your comment "...if the award is from UK than its equivalent to degree
from accredited university...." is interesting Rector as it is almost word for word what 2 of the group said. Their argument is that there is NO risk no matter where the degree comes from as the degree relies on the prior competence clearly demonstrated over a long period of time.

I do think that this is different from a manager trying to prove he should get an "MBA" - but maybe I am wrong? Does anyone see it from the perspective we are looking at it from? I hope so ...

Even the Manager who wants to get his MBA may do what Simeon my project manager did(PMP), he obtained on eBay
2 or 3 sets of MBA CD's - CBT's, MBA1 - 5 cD's, MBA2 5 CD's and MBA 3 - Specializations.

He applied to WGU for competancy based - test out
MBA and earned it in less than 2 years. He travels all the time so actually testing in a facility is a big thing for him.