Scofield Graduate School and Theological Seminary

[Jimmy Clifton]

Scofield Graduate School and Theological Seminary (http://www.ananswer.org/school/index.html) is an interesting and puzzling institution to me. It appears to be a Plymouth Brethren school. It is located in India.

I don't know much, if anything, about foreign schools of theology, with the exception of some South African schools. So, I need some help with this one. The following is on their web site:

Scofield' is accredited by the International Council for Accrediting Alternate and Theological Studies ( ICAATS), Kerala, India. Due to new laws in Indian, the Brethren Assemblies (a Protestant denomination) were able to file an accrediting agency with the Indian government. This is the first time in the history of India that a Christian agency has been able to obtain government recognition. Most countries are moving to the model of accreditation that is found in the USA. The situation with the ICAATS is very much analogous to the practice of the USDE. The rigorous academic standards of ICAATS ensures the quality of AASA programs. Our accreditation is not necessarily of the same "recognition" as that of Regional accreditation but it is neither of the same "recognition" as non-recognized accrediting bodies here in the USA, as there are many "accreditation mills" here in the USA. 'Scofield' holds legitimate Indian government recognized accreditation. It has yet to be seen whether or not this accreditation falls under what is called GAAP.

Anyone have any clue about this accrediting agency and its supposed Indian government recognition? Thanks!

[Jabbezzz]

Scofield Graduate School and Theological Seminary (http://www.ananswer.org/school/index.html)

Any school with the name Scofield attached must be a solid school................ :D

[J]

Anyone have any clue about this accrediting agency and its supposed Indian government recognition? Thanks!

I am not 100% on this, but I don't think it hangs together. What I think they have done is created their own accrediting agency and then filed it with a government department. That isn't government approval in the sense we normally understand it, nor is it recognised accreditation. Their agency may have high standards or it may not, but it doesn't look to me as if anyone in government is conducting meaningful oversight.

I would treat this as self-accreditation a la Breyer State unless someone can persuade me otherwise.

PS - How long until St Regis finds them? :o

[Jimmy Clifton]

I know how easy it is to misrepresent. Still, the site says it is accredited and recognized by the Indian gov.'t.

I am trying to find out more.

I suspect, regardless of accreditation, the work is substantial, just a gut feeling.

[North]

Whole thing is an enigma. This seems to be run by Kenny Rhodes who at one time was a student at ACCS and set up their on line library. With everything that happened at ACCS, he did not finish his doctorate (looks like in his bio he only got through a couple of courses).

He appears to be doing his PhD through Calvin (one in India accredited by the same entity that accredits Scofield). His bio lists him as a candidate.

On degreeinfo some folks tried to nail things down with the person running Calvin but to no avail. Someone else even tried e-mailing the Indian government about this accreditation agency....again to no avail.

Kenny seems like a nice guy but I am not sure what to make of it. Would be nice to have it cleared up. One should not jump into it. Remember the whole Monterray Insitutute of Graduate Studies mess. Some smart, sincere, and educationally savy folks got fooled on that one.

It would be nice to have something from the Indian gov't saying that this accreditor was recongized and a graduate would be on par with one from one of their state universities.

North

[Jimmy Clifton]

...It would be nice to have something from the Indian gov't saying that this accreditor was recongized and a graduate would be on par with one from one of their state universities.
North

I have tried numerous times to get some repsonse from the Indian govermnemt. I will try again.

[Dr. Cone]

Whole thing is an enigma. This seems to be run by Kenny Rhodes who at one time was a student at ACCS and set up their on line library. With everything that happened at ACCS, he did not finish his doctorate (looks like in his bio he only got through a couple of courses).

He appears to be doing his PhD through Calvin (one in India accredited by the same entity that accredits Scofield). His bio lists him as a candidate.

On degreeinfo some folks tried to nail things down with the person running Calvin but to no avail. Someone else even tried e-mailing the Indian government about this accreditation agency....again to no avail.

Kenny seems like a nice guy but I am not sure what to make of it. Would be nice to have it cleared up. One should not jump into it. Remember the whole Monterray Insitutute of Graduate Studies mess. Some smart, sincere, and educationally savy folks got fooled on that one.

It would be nice to have something from the Indian gov't saying that this accreditor was recongized and a graduate would be on par with one from one of their state universities.

North

Greetings!
This is my first post on this board, and I hope it is a bit helpful...
Actually, the ICAATS accreditation is not equal to India's university accreditations, as India has very strict church/state separation. The accreditation is significant in that it allows graduates of ICAATS schools to teach in Indian seminaries.

Enjoy....

[Jimmy Clifton]

Greetings!
This is my first post on this board, and I hope it is a bit helpful...
Actually, the ICAATS accreditation is not equal to India's university accreditations, as India has very strict church/state separation. The accreditation is significant in that it allows graduates of ICAATS schools to teach in Indian seminaries.

Enjoy....

Thank you Dr. Cone. Does this mean that the statements made on the Scofield site regarding ICAATS is somewhat skewed? How is ICAATS viewed by other nations?

Much obliged!

[Dr. Cone]

Thank you Dr. Cone. Does this mean that the statements made on the Scofield site regarding ICAATS is somewhat skewed? How is ICAATS viewed by other nations?

Much obliged!

This is the quote from Scofield's site:

'Scofield' is accredited by the International Council for Accrediting Alternate and Theological Studies ( ICAATS), Kerala, India. Due to new laws in Indian, the Brethren Assemblies (a Protestant denomination) were able to file an accrediting agency with the Indian government. This is the first time in the history of India that a Christian agency has been able to obtain government recognition. Most countries are moving to the model of accreditation that is found in the USA. The situation with the ICAATS is very much analogous to the practice of the USDE. The rigorous academic standards of ICAATS ensures the quality of AASA programs. Our accreditation is not necessarily of the same "recognition" as that of Regional accreditation but it is neither of the same "recognition" as non-recognized accrediting bodies here in the USA, as there are many "accreditation mills" here in the USA. 'Scofield' holds legitimate Indian government recognized accreditation. It has yet to be seen whether or not this accreditation falls under what is called GAAP.

It seems to be wholly accurate...which statements do you view as 'skewed'? Perhaps I am missing something...

[simon6755]

I am an ex-student from Trinity school of Apologetics and Theology, which is accredited for ICAAT. I do not wish to say anything bad but only experiences I had while doing my program there. There are no two mentors as promised but a one-man show - Johnson Philip himself. Their assignment is consists of writing out summary of what you have understood from the Sermon and Text document in 500 words. End of the day, as usual a hundred plus pages thesis. The diploma award was just a cheap paper and without any school logo or engross-gold seal. About the ICAAT, I do not think it is a government awarded agency because they have set up a website at www.icaat.org, and better a forum, which sounds very convincing. I have written to Johnson Philip for verification on this matter but total ignore although I was his student. I have even check out students and a friend coming back from India concerning this matter, and was told they knew nothing about this. Those who wish to study there online, please consider properly because once they collect your one time payment fee - the rest of the journey throughout the program may not be so “NICE.”

Simon6755

[R.E.Best]

I am an ex-student from Trinity school of Apologetics and Theology, which is accredited for ICAAT. I do not wish to say anything bad but only experiences I had while doing my program there. There are no two mentors as promised but a one-man show - Johnson Philip himself. Their assignment is consists of writing out summary of what you have understood from the Sermon and Text document in 500 words. End of the day, as usual a hundred plus pages thesis. The diploma award was just a cheap paper and without any school logo or engross-gold seal. About the ICAAT, I do not think it is a government awarded agency because they have set up a website at www.icaat.org, and better a forum, which sounds very convincing. I have written to Johnson Philip for verification on this matter but total ignore although I was his student. I have even check out students and a friend coming back from India concerning this matter, and was told they knew nothing about this. Those who wish to study there online, please consider properly because once they collect your one time payment fee - the rest of the journey throughout the program may not be so “NICE.”

Simon6755


I just received a Th.B and am thinking about enrolling at Trinity............carefully evaluating them before doing so......interested in their M.B.S program. Which program did you complete? Thanks.

[The Mentor]

I am an ex-student from Trinity school of Apologetics and Theology, which is accredited for ICAAT. I do not wish to say anything bad but only experiences I had while doing my program there. There are no two mentors as promised but a one-man show - Johnson Philip himself. Their assignment is consists of writing out summary of what you have understood from the Sermon and Text document in 500 words. End of the day, as usual a hundred plus pages thesis. The diploma award was just a cheap paper and without any school logo or engross-gold seal. About the ICAAT, I do not think it is a government awarded agency because they have set up a website at www.icaat.org, and better a forum, which sounds very convincing. I have written to Johnson Philip for verification on this matter but total ignore although I was his student. I have even check out students and a friend coming back from India concerning this matter, and was told they knew nothing about this. Those who wish to study there online, please consider properly because once they collect your one time payment fee - the rest of the journey throughout the program may not be so “NICE.”

Simon6755
There are certain factual errors in this post:

1. The website of ICCATS is not iccats.org but iccats.org.in

2. ICAATS is authorized by Government Notification KLA/TCR/Dec 2003 and additional notifications to accredit theological degrees. You can inquire with ICAATS for more information. I am not a part of ICAATS.

3. Any institution accredited by ICAATS has to provide a number of Mentors and Senior Mentors proportional to the number of students. While Trinity might have had only one Mentor when it started operation a decade ago, it had a number of Mentors when ICAATS accredited it.

4. Prospective students should go to www.TrinityTheology.Org and interact with their Faculty, Mentors and current students. There is an active community of hundreds of students who would answer any question a prospective student might have.

5. Most Trinity student feel that Trinity syllabus and assignments are on the higher side of workload, and that it is not easy to complete the courses within the stipulated period of time.

6. Thus while the unidentified person who says he is a product of Trinity had several comments for people on this Board, most of them them were factually incorrect.

7. Instead of a discussion here, why not go to the site and rigoroulsly interrogate the students, faculty, and mentors. Even private communication is allowed with all three to ensure that you get a fair assessement.

8. Coming to Jimmy Clifton's question as to how other nations look at ICAATS accreditation, they look at it exactly the way they look at any government-recognized accrediting agency.

If any of you friends has any more questions, I would be happy to answer you. However, instead of a distant guesswork, I suggest that first you examine the exhuastive information offered at www.TrinityTheology.Org which includes detailed syllabus [about to be upgraded further in the next academic session], faculty, students, journal, etc.

[R.E.Best]

There are certain factual errors in this post:

1. The website of ICCATS is not iccats.org but iccats.org.in

2. ICAATS is authorized by Government Notification KLA/TCR/Dec 2003 and additional notifications to accredit theological degrees. You can inquire with ICAATS for more information. I am not a part of ICAATS.

3. Any institution accredited by ICAATS has to provide a number of Mentors and Senior Mentors proportional to the number of students. While Trinity might have had only one Mentor when it started operation a decade ago, it had a number of Mentors when ICAATS accredited it.

4. Prospective students should go to www.TrinityTheology.Org and interact with their Faculty, Mentors and current students. There is an active community of hundreds of students who would answer any question a prospective student might have.

5. Most Trinity student feel that Trinity syllabus and assignments are on the higher side of workload, and that it is not easy to complete the courses within the stipulated period of time.

6. Thus while the unidentified person who says he is a product of Trinity had several comments for people on this Board, most of them them were factually incorrect.

7. Instead of a discussion here, why not go to the site and rigoroulsly interrogate the students, faculty, and mentors. Even private communication is allowed with all three to ensure that you get a fair assessement.

8. Coming to Jimmy Clifton's question as to how other nations look at ICAATS accreditation, they look at it exactly the way they look at any government-recognized accrediting agency.

If any of you friends has any more questions, I would be happy to answer you. However, instead of a distant guesswork, I suggest that first you examine the exhuastive information offered at www.TrinityTheology.Org which includes detailed syllabus [about to be upgraded further in the next academic session], faculty, students, journal, etc.


Thank you, Sir..........I certainly will have a look. God bless.

[michael]

Thank you, Sir..........I certainly will have a look. God bless.

There is no website at iccats.org.in

[Jimmy Clifton]

There is no website at iccats.org.in


Actually, it's http://www.icaats.org.in

[michael]

thanks Jimmy....

[The Mentor]

Ooops !! I am very sorry about the spelling mistake in the name. Thanks a lot Jimmy for correcting.

The website of ICAATS is www.ICAATS.Org.In

There are few more things I wish to bring to your attention. This student from Trinity makes few more claims which are factually incorrect:

He says: There are no two mentors as promised but a one-man show - Johnson Philip himself.
Actually Trinity promises only ONE mentor, and not two, as anyone can verify from www.TrinityTheology.org However, Trinity now provides two or more mentors to each student

Their assignment is consists of writing out summary of what you have understood from the Sermon and Text document in 500 words.
This is not right. Trinity provides textbooks in the form of text, audio, and video. The open-book exam system followed by Trinity is very tough and students say so in all their feedback.

End of the day, as usual a hundred plus pages thesis.
This is not right. The length and depth of thesis is related to the course. For the diploma course they write onlya 50-page work, whereas for doctoral programs they will have to produces an original work of up to to 250 pages in length


The diploma award was just a cheap paper and without any school logo or engross-gold seal.
This has nothing to do with quality of instruction.


About the ICAAT, I do not think it is a government awarded agency because they have set up a website at www.icaat.org, and better a forum, which sounds very convincing.
Just because someone THINKS it is not there, it does not disappear. You should know that in India running a diploma mill leads to imprisonment. Unlike other countries, India is very strict about it. The Government has so far issued three official endorsements about the legal status of ICAATS

I have written to Johnson Philip for verification on this matter but total ignore although I was his student.
Subsequent to reading the above comment I contacted Dr. Johnson C. Philip, and esteemed theologican and physicist in India. He told me that that complete details are always furnished about ICAATS. He reminded that when ICAATS has its own website and office, the student could easily have contacted them also.

I have even check out students and a friend coming back from India concerning this matter, and was told they knew nothing about this.
India is a country with 1050 million people, and 600,000 towns/villeges. Just because someone -- presumably on a short visit to India -- "know nothing about this" it does not follow that ICAATS does not exist. They could easily have visited the office of ICAATS.

Those who wish to study there online, please consider properly because once they collect your one time payment fee - the rest of the journey throughout the program may not be so “NICE.”
Hundreds of current students interact with each other on the "Discussion Forum" of Trinity. They have full freedom to criticize Trinity. Just see what they have to say. The only criticism that is echoed repeatedly is that Trinity syllabus is very heavy and that students need to work for longer hours to complete their assignments than they thought it would take. I am sure that any propsective student would be happy to hear this criticism. Anyone can interact with the students after they register on the forum.

Going by your signature files, all of you [except the person who claims to be a graduate of Trinity] are from USA. I appreciate that you have shown so much interest in Trinity. Please do visit the site for a first-hand experience, and do not be taken in by the anonymous posting of a person who cliams to be a graduate of Trinity.

I am open to your questions !

[simon6755]

I do not wish to discredit calvin or trinity schools but it is my true and real experiences. I had all the email correspondence with my one mentor and the awarded degree. I do not wish to mention myself but if it is true than anyone out there (on the net) who wishes to study with these schools can go ahead. I am just informing my 2/3 years experiences there.

Simon6755

[The Mentor]

Dear Simon 6755

you did not respond to the point-by-point manner in which I mentioned the factual errors in your email.

Once your first email is considered point-by-point, the way I did, nothing is left.

If you have any bitterness left due to any unfortunate experience, Trinity now offers an Ombudsman Service. You can contact the Obudsman who will solve the problem.

However, seeing that I pointed out to factual errors not in an evasive way but in a point-by-point manner, what is left of your letter? Only one thing: that you were unhappy. But did you ever try to solve that problem.

As a Christian agency Trinity has set up an Ombudsman (a common Indian practice) and anyone can contact him. Did you contact him in a sprit of Christian inquiry. If yes, would you like to quote from your email or his reply?

Please remember, Trinity is on theology school that goes out of the way to offer every kind of help. Why not seek it ??

[simon6755]

Thanks for such a kindly replied. I was unhappy during that periods of time but since I had finished the program and received what I acquired for than there is no point for me to complain or write to the Ombudsman Service. What I have shared here is just to inform or warn all those who wishes to pursue further studies with calvin or trinity. We also need to know it is always a blessing to get a kind and helpful mentor during my/our course of studying but there are or were times where we are in disagreement with our mentor than our course of education is in the "mercy" of our mentor. Accreditation (whether it is government certified or not) to me it means good quality of education as well as communication between students and mentors or the school. Maybe, trinity or calvin theological policies have changed during these couple of months so it is quite a good news for all. There are so many theological schools out there in the internet all working for the benefits of those seeking the word of God. Theological schools not only suppose to TEACH but to be "Christlike" in all actions. I hope the best for this schools and hope for a warmly correspondence in the near future, and not word of "MOUTH."

Simon

[The Mentor]

That is the spirit !

You will find that Trinity has a very large number of faculty, mentors, and many other things today. Also, all course have been upgraded [= become a bit more tough]

Just have a look at the "Discussion Forum" and you will find that if one Mentor does not help you, you can always pick up another. That is the Trinity of today.

Of course, you should have written to someone on the faculty and they would have given you another mentor. All faculty email IDs were always available on the net.

On the revised website you can easily contact anyone on the "Forum". The accreditor takes it seriously if a problem is not solved promptly.

And the "Ombudsman" who is not under the authority of the Principal, and who reports directly to the Academic Council, is always there to help anyone with any problem.

I am sure you will get back in touch with Trinity, since you are part of that family. You will then feel like going for another degree with Trinity

[The Mentor]

I forgot to add that 60%, or more, of the students who study for a degree with Trinity opt for a second degree after completion of the first.

That does tell something about the developments at Trinity School in India [www.TrinityTheology.Org] which should not be confused with others of a similar name.

[Paulus]

Hi everyone,

Being a student and a senior mentor from Trinity School of Apologetics and Theology and the acquisition editor for our Theological Journal, it is very easy for me to dismantle all the errors which have been posted on this forum. I am able to talk with a kind of "authority" because I know them while, as I see in this forum, not many of you do.

Now, if you have any question concerning the Theological School, please contact those who know the best that school before railing at it without first-hand knowledge. Many good things have been said on this forum trying to replace the off-tracked posts. Thanks for this brothers.

Now, concerning the issue of ICAATS, I wrote to them a couple of times and have received reply every time. They assured me that Trinity was one of the best Biblical schools in India having succeeded in the required criteria to be accredited. Moreover, they specified to me that Trinity was even higher in their caliber as a theological school. So, if anyone on this forum wanted to enroll with Trinity, you are welcome and do not keep your focus on what is negative. As in the Christian life, we should never evaluate things on the basis of emotion or our own experiences (good or bad). Real facts are the key. The truth is that Trinity is very high in its caliber. Please, detractors, do your homeworks better to be more convincing.

Lastly, being a student myself on the ThD program, let me tell you that all bad things which have been said on this forum are totally false.

I wait your comments

[Jimmy Clifton]

I continue to be doubtful about Trinity as far as accreditation. I am impressed with the descriptions of the courses. They appear to be very in-depth, thorough, scholarly, and challenging from their descriptions and from some insights by current Trinity students.

The accreditation concerns me. Being "authorized" is not tantamount to "approval" by a government. Many agencies and activities in America are approved and authorized but that does not mean the government sanctions them. For instance, the American government allows Accrediting Commission International to exist. But this is not government approval of them as an accrediting agency.

I have contacted the Indian consulate in Washington D.C. regarding ICAATS. We shall see what he says. All ICAATS would have to do is prove unequivocally that it is an Indian government approved accrediting agency and that would silence many if not all critics.

[Timothy Jensen]

I continue to be doubtful about Trinity as far as accreditation. I am impressed with the descriptions of the courses. They appear to be very in-depth, thorough, scholarly, and challenging from their descriptions and from some insights by current Trinity students.

The accreditation concerns me. Being "authorized" is not tantamount to "approval" by a government. Many agencies and activities in America are approved and authorized but that does not mean the government sanctions them. For instance, the American government allows Accrediting Commission International to exist. But this is not government approval of them as an accrediting agency.

I have contacted the Indian consulate in Washington D.C. regarding ICAATS. We shall see what he says. All ICAATS would have to do is prove unequivocally that it is an Indian government approved accrediting agency and that would silence many if not all critics.

You mentioned 'Plymouth Brethren' in one of your earlier posts - where did you find this, and is that an established fact?

[DegreeSeeker]

There are certain factual errors in this post:

4. Prospective students should go to www.TrinityTheology.Org and interact with their Faculty, Mentors and current students. There is an active community of hundreds of students who would answer any question a prospective student might have.



I only count 125 users with a measley 885 posts.



6. Thus while the unidentified person who says he is a product of Trinity had several comments for people on this Board, most of them them were factually incorrect.



And you are?




Please do visit the site for a first-hand experience, and do not be taken in by the anonymous posting of a person who cliams to be a graduate of Trinity.

I am open to your questions !



And you are?



If any of you friends has any more questions, I would be happy to answer you. However, instead of a distant guesswork, I suggest that first you examine the exhuastive information offered at www.TrinityTheology.Org which includes detailed syllabus [about to be upgraded further in the next academic session], faculty, students, journal, etc.

Why don't we stop the guesswork starting with exactly who you are, your academic and theological credentials and how you represent Trinity?

[The Mentor]

Dear Degree Seeker

Thank you very much for your qeustions!

The Discussion Forum was opened to students only 2 months ago, and 125 have registered in two months. They do not represent the total student body.

My academic credentials are immaterial. What is important is: things which I said here are independently verifiable. I do not have to back them with my credentials!

Good that Jimmy contacted the right people in Washington. That kind of activities help you to verify things I stated here.

Only facts are important -- verify them -- and not people.

[The Mentor]

I have contacted the Indian consulate in Washington D.C. regarding ICAATS. We shall see what he says. All ICAATS would have to do is prove unequivocally that it is an Indian government approved accrediting agency and that would silence many if not all critics.

Thanks Jimmy for that move! We await the result.

[The Mentor]

Dear Timothy

About Plymouth Brethren: Scofield Graduate School has no connection with the Plymouth Brethren.

Trinity School of Apologetics [www.trinitytheology.org], however, was established by people from PB background. However, the faculty and mentors are not all Brethren.

[Jimmy Clifton]

Dear Timothy

About Plymouth Brethren: Scofield Graduate School has no connection with the Plymouth Brethren.

Trinity School of Apologetics [www.trinitytheology.org], however, was established by people from PB background. However, the faculty and mentors are not all Brethren.

An interesting group, the Plymouth Brethren (Christian Brethren is what they like to be called now.), who have had great influence in evangelical Christianity disproportionate to their small numbers. The bible scholar F. F. Bruce was a member as was H. A. Ironsides.

[The Mentor]

Dear Rev Clifton,

in India also this small group of Christians [2200 churches in 110 years] is highly influential in theology and apologetics. Thus it is not surprising that they have taken initiative to establish a strong prgram like that of Trinity's.

What is more, in Trinity they have pooled the best from non Brethren background to help them.

Yes, Christian Brethren is the designation they love most.

Bruce and Ironside are well known in USA. Tregelles and W E Vine were also noted Brethren scholars.

[Jimmy Clifton]

Dear Rev Clifton,

in India also this small group of Christians [2200 churches in 110 years] is highly influential in theology and apologetics. Thus it is not surprising that they have taken initiative to establish a strong prgram like that of Trinity's.

What is more, in Trinity they have pooled the best from non Brethren background to help them.

Yes, Christian Brethren is the designation they love most.

Bruce and Ironside are well known in USA. Tregelles and W E Vine were also noted Brethren scholars.

Thank you as I had forgotten Vine was a Brethren. I did know that at one time. I don't believe I have ever heard of Tregelles. I will have to learn about him.

[The Mentor]

Dear Rev. Clifton

Tregelles was a notable figure in Biblical languages.

In the present generation, the founder of Trinity, Dr. Johnson C. Philip, is an outstanding theologian and apologist among the Brethren. He has authored both reference as well as text books (in an Indian language) which are used by seminaries of all Indian denominations.

The greatest contribution of the Brethren was the dispensationalism

[Jimmy Clifton]

...The greatest contribution of the Brethren was the dispensationalism

How very true. Dispensationalists are indeed indebted to John Nelson Darby for this. I have always had a great deal of respect for the Brethren. They have a long history of honesty, integrity, and character. This is one reason I am not being overly critical regarding Trinity. The accreditation claims concern me but I will await the results of several emails before further comment on the subject at hand.

I am wondering if it might be of great service if Trinity would agree to send out a few sample courses to its detractors. This way one will be able to see for oneself the quality or lack of quality. I know of one unaccredited seminary in the U.S. that did this and received very positive feedback by a few who had been very critical. Just a thought. I'd certainly be interested in reviewing a course or two and reporting my findings.

[The Mentor]

How very true. Dispensationalists are indeed indebted to John Nelson Darby for this. I have always had a great deal of respect for the Brethren. They have a long history of honesty, integrity, and character. This is one reason I am not being overly critical regarding Trinity. The accreditation claims concern me but I will await the results of several emails before further comment on the subject at hand.

I am wondering if it might be of great service if Trinity would agree to send out a few sample courses to its detractors. This way one will be able to see for oneself the quality or lack of quality. I know of one unaccredited seminary in the U.S. that did this and received very positive feedback by a few who had been very critical. Just a thought. I'd certainly be interested in reviewing a course or two and reporting my findings.


I am sure, Rev. Clifton, that in the end you will discover what you did was right in not being overly critical of Trinity. I hope and pray that you get the right kind of info both about Trinity and ICAATS. We know that once you get such info, you will not stop endorsing Trinity.

About sample courses: Trinity offers sample courses to anyone who likes to have a look at the course modules. 5 to 15 of the initial course modules are sent to ANYONE who places a request. Would you be kind enough to send a request to Sample@TrinityTheology.Org for a set of sample courses.

Trinity receives 5 to 10 such requests every day, and encourages everyone to check the courses and also to discuss with the students who are working with Trinity.

Of course, I am sure you will understand, that Trinity is a conservative school totally committed to the four "solas" of Reformation -- in case this is different from your theological orientation.

[Timothy Jensen]

An interesting group, the Plymouth Brethren (Christian Brethren is what they like to be called now.), who have had great influence in evangelical Christianity disproportionate to their small numbers. The bible scholar F. F. Bruce was a member as was H. A. Ironsides.

They broke aprt very early after J N Darby became involved, into what was then known loosely as Darbyites and Kellyites, the form now 'Exclusive Brethren' and the latter 'Open Brethren' which of course split again and again.

I don't think that any would [a] opt for the 'Plymouth' title or [b] not do something necessary to make is aboundantly clear that they are not 'Exclusive' Brethren.

It doesn't take much to turn a religion into a cult.

[Timothy Jensen]

How very true. Dispensationalists are indeed indebted to John Nelson Darby for this. I have always had a great deal of respect for the Brethren. They have a long history of honesty, integrity, and character. This is one reason I am not being overly critical regarding Trinity. The accreditation claims concern me but I will await the results of several emails before further comment on the subject at hand.

I am wondering if it might be of great service if Trinity would agree to send out a few sample courses to its detractors. This way one will be able to see for oneself the quality or lack of quality. I know of one unaccredited seminary in the U.S. that did this and received very positive feedback by a few who had been very critical. Just a thought. I'd certainly be interested in reviewing a course or two and reporting my findings.

There are a few groups that hold to Darby as their 'creator':

www.brethren.org - commonly known ans the 'Open' Brethren
www.mybrethren.org/index.html - were 'Exclusive' Brethren until the 1960s
www.theexclusivebrethren.com/ - those today known as the 'Exclusive' Brethren

[The Mentor]

Dear Timothy

not all Plymouth Brethren are averse to identify themselves as PB. In fact the leading Indian PB site uses this word and Open Brethren in many places on http://www.BrethrenAssembly.com

While it is true that the best spiritual group does not take much to turn into a cult, the open nature of the "open" brethren has prevented it from moving into that direction. Since every church in this stream is autonomous, no central authority can influence them all to move into a cultistic direction.

Bruce, Vine, Tregelles, Ironside were all open brethren. So is Philip connected to Trinity I mentioned in one of the posts above.

By the way: Open Brethren [PB] tend to be 4-point Calvinists. The majority reject Limited Atonement. This is the position of Trinity, which has PB roots.

[Jimmy Clifton]

I am sure, Rev. Clifton, that in the end you will discover what you did was right in not being overly critical of Trinity. I hope and pray that you get the right kind of info both about Trinity and ICAATS. We know that once you get such info, you will not stop endorsing Trinity.

About sample courses: Trinity offers sample courses to anyone who likes to have a look at the course modules. 5 to 15 of the initial course modules are sent to ANYONE who places a request. Would you be kind enough to send a request to Sample@TrinityTheology.Org for a set of sample courses.

Trinity receives 5 to 10 such requests every day, and encourages everyone to check the courses and also to discuss with the students who are working with Trinity.

Of course, I am sure you will understand, that Trinity is a conservative school totally committed to the four "solas" of Reformation -- in case this is different from your theological orientation.


I just requested some sample courses. Thank you for the info.

So, Trinity only endorses four of the five "sola's"?

Interesting. Which one of the following does Trinity not endorse?:

Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, and Soli Deo Gloria.

[Jimmy Clifton]

So does this mean that there are not any PB groups calling themselves "Closed" anymore?

[The Mentor]

Rev. Clifton,

Trinity endorses Soli Deo Gloria, but does not place it in the category of the first four solas which are fundamental doctrines.

There are hundreds of Exclusive or Closed Brethren churches in Germany and USA, but only less than a dozen in India.

[Jimmy Clifton]

Rev. Clifton,

Trinity endorses Soli Deo Gloria, but does not place it in the category of the first four solas which are fundamental doctrines.

There are hundreds of Exclusive or Closed Brethren churches in Germany and USA, but only less than a dozen in India.

Thank you. I must say, this has all been very enlightening. I love studying the various denominations, sects, and cults. I am afraid my memory is not so good as it used to be so I appreciate the updated info and refreshers.

[Timothy Jensen]

Dear Timothy

not all Plymouth Brethren are averse to identify themselves as PB. In fact the leading Indian PB site uses this word and Open Brethren in many places on http://www.BrethrenAssembly.com

While it is true that the best spiritual group does not take much to turn into a cult, the open nature of the "open" brethren has prevented it from moving into that direction. Since every church in this stream is autonomous, no central authority can influence them all to move into a cultistic direction.

Bruce, Vine, Tregelles, Ironside were all open brethren. So is Philip connected to Trinity I mentioned in one of the posts above.

By the way: Open Brethren [PB] tend to be 4-point Calvinists. The majority reject Limited Atonement. This is the position of Trinity, which has PB roots.

The creation of the 'Open' Brethren [OB] was the first of many breaks in the original Plymouth Brethren movement. The [OB] seem to claim Darby, but then they are the ones that opposed him at Bethesda over an issue the culmination of which drew the lines between a local Assembly's responsibility and what in affect Darby was promoting as a 'Universal' fellowship. He held that you can't be excommunicated in one place and turn up in another as if you were not excommunicated.

The 'Darby' group then became more and more 'exclusive' - really an extremist fundamentalist group that gives very adequate reason to ask the question - 'is it a religion or a cult?'. Darby was clearly 'the boss', and history shows that any who disagreed with him ended up not being permitted to be a part of that fellowship - not just say in Plymouth, but anywhere in the world. These people who were kicked out seem largely to be very intelligent, and it is as if Darby and his close cronies were not going to tolerate being challenged on any point that they had decided was 'the truth'.

Interesting - religion has been an integral part of and/or issue in how many wars?

[Timothy Jensen]

Rev. Clifton,

Trinity endorses Soli Deo Gloria, but does not place it in the category of the first four solas which are fundamental doctrines.

There are hundreds of Exclusive or Closed Brethren churches in Germany and USA, but only less than a dozen in India.

There are many 'closed' brethren groups, and I am not really aware of their history. Some clearly had no connection with Darby whatsoever, and in the main these seem to come from Germany - there is abundant history to read on the web regarding these if any has the inclination or the time.

The true 'Exclusive Brethren' movement, now referred to be those tens of thousands excommunicated as 'The Peeebs', has experienced many breakaway groups, most of which seem to disappear as times goes on. The 'Exclusives' became more 'extreme' as time progressed, and their leaders were quite prepared to allow issues to arise that were divisive in nature. A Frank Raven [FER] followed Darby and he was then followed by a Irish American James Taylor [JTSnr].

Taylor was responsible for one major division referred to by the Exclusives as the 'Sonship' question - wherein he rejected that notion that Christ was always the Son of God, and only became the Son of God at his birth - "...he shall be called Son of God..." It is truly sad that people were excommunicated in bulk over this, and I understand that it affected every continent. Taylor also brought in a notion that there would be one leader, not several, and at this stage to a degree the Exclusives became man centered.

After Taylor's death there was a period of no definite leader. A wonderful and meak mean, G R Cowell of Hornchurch was looked to by many, but Taylor's son, 'Big Jim' Taylor [JTJnr] took Cowell on at a global conference, and by force had him and his entrie support group excommunicated globally. The Exclusives then became more extreme, members were not allowed to eat with non members, family memebrs who were no Exclsuives were expleed from the family in every way; company directorships, professional association memberships, partnership with non members, and any form of shared anything - building, business, profit etc was outlawed. Later this was extended to families and non members would come home at night to an empty house, and be unable to access their spouse or children who may well be in another country by then. At each of these points there were major splits of thousands, and broken families.

Taylor insisted that his word was binding authority as he was God's Elect Vessel on earth, and the Exclusives became totally man centered. No decision could be taken by anyone anwhere without this mans agreement! - marriages, change of locality, visiting another country and so on. Taylor was an alcoholic and encouraged drinking and any who refused to drink whisky were also excommunicated. He became publicly involved with another man's wife at a conference at Aberdeen, and the Exclusives then again had possibly the most major split. He was infallable and could do no wrong - people either accepted that or not and with that week the whole face of the movement globally was changed for ever.

He died, was followed by a James Symington [JHS], a Neche North Dakota pig farmer. Things became extreme, and on his death an Australian, John Hales [JSH] became universal leader, and on his death his son Bruce Hales [BDH] is now the current universal leader.

They number globally now only about 44,000, are extremely wealthy, totally selfcontained, and have no hesitation in spending million$$ supporting Bush in the US elections, Howard in the Australian elections, and opposing those who promte legislative changes in favour of the gay community - New Zealand, Canada, and Tasmania to date, yet they do not vote thmselves.

Is this a religion or a cult?

When religion causes wars, breaks up families, results in suicides ... ?

[Jimmy Clifton]

There are many 'closed' brethren groups, and I am not really aware of their history. Some clearly had no connection with Darby whatsoever, and in the main these seem to come from Germany - there is abundant history to read on the web regarding these if any has the inclination or the time.

The Plymouth Brethren and the Brethren churches founded by Alexander Mack in Germany are completely different. Several groups sprang from the Mack movement--the Church of the Brethren, the old German Baptist Brethren, the Brethren Church, and the Fellowship of Brethren Churches, among others.

[Timothy Jensen]

The Plymouth Brethren and the Brethren churches founded by Alexander Mack in Germany are completely different. Several groups sprang from the Mack movement--the Church of the Brethren, the old German Baptist Brethren, the Brethren Church, and the Fellowship of Brethren Churches, among others.

Thank you Jimmy - 'Anabaptist' springs to mind.

Add in Mennonites and we really DO have a multivariate quilt ;)

Which wars in history did not involve religion?

[Theodore Lamar Heiks]

The Plymouth Brethren and the Brethren churches founded by Alexander Mack in Germany are completely different. Several groups sprang from the Mack movement--the Church of the Brethren, the old German Baptist Brethren, the Brethren Church, and the Fellowship of Brethren Churches, among others. And where do the United Brethren come from?

[Paulus]

Yes I have and after having written to ICAATS myself, I know that what they say is true.

Stop to be incredulous, but believe.

Intelligence and frankness is not an american buisness only.

[Jimmy Clifton]

...Which wars in history did not involve religion?

How about the The Peloponnesian War, the French Revolution, the Austro-Sardinian War, the Civil War, WW's One and Two (about a race of people, not religion), the Korean War, the Cuban Revolution, etc.?

[Jimmy Clifton]

And where do the United Brethren come from?

The United Brethren began in the mid 1800's when Martin Boehm, a Mennonite preacher, and William Otterbein, a German Reformed preacher, declared themselves to be brothers (brethren) and a denomintion was subsequently formed. The headquarters is not that far from me in Huntington, IN.

[Dr.G]

Just to make matters clearer. The degree that are completed through Trinity Graduate school of Apologetic and theology come with a notorized documentation fron the non-judicila couts of India validating the goverment approval of ICAATS. I have 4 other degree from state recogonized Universities in South Africa. My TH.D consist of a 220 page thesis that was submitted to Trinity for examination purposes.

[Dr.G]

Just to make matters clearer. The degree that are completed through Trinity Graduate school of Apologetic and theology come with a notorized documentation fron the non-judicial couts of India validating the goverment approval of ICAATS. I have 4 other degree from state recogonized Universities in South Africa. My TH.D consist of a 220 page thesis that was submitted to Trinity for examination purposes.

[Pax]

Just to make matters clearer. The degree that are completed through Trinity Graduate school of Apologetic and theology come with a notorized documentation fron the non-judicial couts of India validating the goverment approval of ICAATS. I have 4 other degree from state recogonized Universities in South Africa. My TH.D consist of a 220 page thesis that was submitted to Trinity for examination purposes.

Have you seen these notarized documents? If so what specifically do they says and from whom do they come?

We have been unable to get an answer to this for some time (very frsutrating since no one will answer it in a straight forward manner). No one ever comes out and says it is from X government office that states ICAATS is recognized by X. For all we know ICAATS merely has government recognition (approval) in the form of a business license.

So, if you have this document please provide the information above. If you could scan it in that would be even better. You may really be able to help clear up the fog for your school and provide valuable assistance to potential students. No generalities please as we have had a lot of that. Specifically it says........

Pax

[The Mentor]

A bit of elaboration is needed about what Dr.G said.

In India the government (the central government which rules the country, and the state government which rules different states) appoint Government Notaries who are lawyers qualified to be judges in high courts and above. This is a constitutional appointment, and the Government Notary is a legally empowered person. What he signs is legally binding upon all.

These men function as Government Notaries. They examine all kinds of legal papers and sign them for the government, using government seal and insignia. Such documents are issued only on government stamp paper.

What Dr. G said has some spelling mistakes. These are "non judicial" stamp papers. In other words, these are stamp papers not related to court-cases, but related to legal documentation issued by a court-functionary of the government. Only a government-appointed and specially empowerd official can issue these legal documents on stamp papers.

To facilitate easy transfer of degrees to other countries, all non Indian students are furnished with these government papers on request. (On request because it involves paying a fees to the government each time a fresh document is issued and the student has to pay the bill).

These papers are not issued to Indian students because within India the status of Trinity degrees is legally established as a theological degree issued by a religious body specially protected by the constitution of India.

The Mentor

[Pax]

A bit of elaboration is needed about what Dr.G said.

In India the government (the central government which rules the country, and the state government which rules different states) appoint Government Notaries who are lawyers qualified to be judges in high courts and above. This is a constitutional appointment, and the Government Notary is a legally empowered person. What he signs is legally binding upon all.

These men function as Government Notaries. They examine all kinds of legal papers and sign them for the government, using government seal and insignia. Such documents are issued only on government stamp paper.

What Dr. G said has some spelling mistakes. These are "non judicial" stamp papers. In other words, these are stamp papers not related to court-cases, but related to legal documentation issued by a court-functionary of the government. Only a government-appointed and specially empowerd official can issue these legal documents on stamp papers.

To facilitate easy transfer of degrees to other countries, all non Indian students are furnished with these government papers on request. (On request because it involves paying a fees to the government each time a fresh document is issued and the student has to pay the bill).

These papers are not issued to Indian students because within India the status of Trinity degrees is legally established as a theological degree issued by a religious body specially protected by the constitution of India.

The Mentor


As posted to Dr G., what is the specific wording on the documentation. This could be all cleared up if someone would scan it into the computer BUT at least read it and post what it says. It comes from X and recognizes ICAATS as what??? An entity with a business license whose purpose is to "accredit" degrees (ie has no standing in the academic community?? like the North American Theological Society degrees does here as they operate off a business license as I understand).

I am not meaning to be rude but no one and I mean no one has posted the wording or what ICAATS is recognized as and by whom (this has been asked over and over on several boards until people just write Trinity off). You really could help us (and you) by posting this info (scan or read off the notarized certificate).

Pax

[The Mentor]

Kindly see my post at

http://www.degreeboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15743

[john]

Dear Jimmy,
Thank you for information. Finally, how did your application to SATS go?

Best Regards,
John.

[Dr.G]

[QUOTE=Pax;36031]Have you seen these notarized documents? If so what specifically do they says and from whom do they come?

Yes I graduated with my Th.D from Trinity and have all the required documentation to prove the validity of Trinity and ICAATS.

We have been unable to get an answer to this for some time (very frsutrating since no one will answer it in a straight forward manner). No one ever comes out and says it is from X government office that states ICAATS is recognized by X. For all we know ICAATS merely has government recognition (approval) in the form of a business license.

The psot that the mentor refers to has the same wording on my notarized docommentation

So, if you have this document please provide the information above. If you could scan it in that would be even better. You may really be able to help clear up the fog for your school and provide valuable assistance to potential students. No generalities please as we have had a lot of that. Specifically it says........

I can definitely do this....

I am presently registered for my PhD at the University of the Western Cape

Oh... bye the way let me also mention that I graduated with my Master in Religious Education from Trinity as well. What would even better if I could e-mail you my thesis so that you can see for yourself the substantial work that was put into my Th. D and MRE.


Rev. Dr. G. Harold
Cape Town Baptist Seminary
www.ctbs.org.za

BTh. South Africa University of Zululand
BTh. (Hons) S.A. University of Zululand
BA (Hons) S.A. Communication Science, University of Zululand
M.Th University of Zululand
Th. D India, Trinity School of Theology and Apologetics
MRE India, Trinty School of Theology and Apologetics
PhD (Canditate) S.A University of Western Cape

[guest]

“Mentor” writes – “Subsequent to reading the above comment I contacted Dr. Johnson C. Philip, and esteemed theologican and physicist in India. He told me that that complete details are always furnished about ICAATS. He reminded that when ICAATS has its own website and office, the student could easily have contacted them also.”

In some other place, he has written that he has US theological degrees. It depends on how you read it.

Mentor is actually “Johnson C Philip”. So “mentor” contacted “Dr. Johnson C Philip”? LOL. He has never studied in US and so, how can he have US theological degrees unless, of course, it is obtained in India?

Be careful, folks. Check with people in Kerala, India before deciding on a college. If the same person is the dean/principal/chancellor of many schools concurrently, something is wrong with this picture.

[BroElixir]

"Dr. Philip serves the President [Principal] and Liaison for International Students of Trinity School Of Apologetics. He is the seniormost Christian Apologist in India today. He obtained his BSc (1976), MSc (1978) and PhD (1991) in Physics from The School of Advanced Studies, Jiwaji University in Gwalior, India. He studied theology with the Lurther Rice Seminary, ICI Belgium, and Asian Christian Academy India, and obtained his MTh [1981] and ThD [1984] in Christian Apologetics from International Theological Seminary [India Extension]. He obtained a DSc in Alternative Medicine in 2003 from Medicina Alternativa and, and DNYS in Naturopthy in 2004. In addition, he is at present working on a Th D in Polemics (Cults) and a PhD in Biblical Archeology."


http://www.trinitytheology.org/Information/DrJCPhilip

[Jimmy]

[QUOTE=Pax;36031]...What would even better if I could e-mail you my thesis so that you can see for yourself the substantial work that was put into my Th. D and MRE....

Okay, I will take you up on this. Kindly email your ThD dissertation to me at drclifton@counsellor.com

Thanks.

[Jimmy]

Dear Jimmy,
Thank you for information. Finally, how did your application to SATS go?

Best Regards,
John.

Hi John,

I haven't submitted it yet. I just don't know if I want to do it. I have earned four master's between 2002 and 2007 plus two certifications and am now working on a paralegal certification. I am getting burned out.

[Dr.G]

Please check next comment

[Dr.G]

[QUOTE=Dr.G;36140]

Okay, I will take you up on this. Kindly email your ThD dissertation to me at drclifton@counsellor.com

Thanks.

Hi Jimmy

I am still awaiting a response from you... I e-mailed you the Introduction and Chapter One of my Th. D. I also requested chapters from your PhD so that I might have some critrea as to the measurement you are going to use to evaluate my academic research. I still await your response.

Thanks