Dr. Contreras transform the Diploma Mill Classification

[dr. latin juris]

Why Dr. Contreras transform the categorization of Kennedy Western?

Dr. Contreras transform the Diploma Mill Classification to unaccredited.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

[Dave Hayden]

Why Dr. Contreras transform the categorization of Kennedy Western?

Dr. Contreras transform the Diploma Mill Classification to unaccredited.

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

Interesting change and quite an achievement for K-W. It, of course, doesn't change exactly what K-W is. Notice the ODA still references the testimony that describes K-W as an out and out degree mill. It will be interesting see if there are any other terms to the settlement or if K-W traded this change for dropping all charges.

Dave

[dr. latin juris]

Yes, a very Interesting thing.

[Neil Hayes]

Why Dr. Contreras transform the categorization of Kennedy Western?
Dr. Contreras transform the Diploma Mill Classification to unaccredited.
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

This is definitely my last post on this channel, but in departing I'd just like to congratulate K-W on its outstanding success and on its bold move to take action against Contreras and the ODA. K-W is a clear winner in this and it is a victory for DL education and for democracy. Hopefully more State Approved and unaccredited schools will follow K-W's example and we will hopefully see the end of the ODA.

[plcscott]

What is it that you see KWU has won Neil? Is KWU now legal in Oregon? Can KWU students/alumni now put a KWU degree on a resume, business cards, etc in Oregon? Is KWU allowed to market in Oregon and accept students in Oregon? KWU is still on the unaccredited illegal to use list with links to the government hearings and testimony. Hell, if that is a huge victory then I would hate to have seen what you would consider a loss.

The ODA never should have labled any schools a diploma mill in the first place. Legal and illegal are sufficient enough for the purpose of the law in my opinion. Instead of simply trying to get the diploma mill label removed, KWU should have tried to become approved, or tried to really take down the ODA. If KWU asked for a settlement of just removing two words then they had no chance of doing anything beyond that, and really did not do anything for the students and alumni that they supposedly represent.

[ray1212]

Regarding ODA and Mr Contreras, it couldn't happen to better people. Maybe we all ought to throw them a big going away party. That is when they get fired or laid off. Wouldn't you like to be a mouse at the local unemployment office when he comes in to apply for assistance. People like him and laws that exist in his state are the height of inefficient government bureaucracy. Also should I mention Mr. Contreras is the epitomy of "The Peter Principle".

[michael]

Regarding ODA and Mr Contreras, it couldn't happen to better people. Maybe we all ought to throw them a big going away party. That is when they get fired or laid off. Wouldn't you like to be a mouse at the local unemployment office when he comes in to apply for assistance. People like him and laws that exist in his state are the height of inefficient government bureaucracy. Also should I mention Mr. Contreras is the epitomy of "The Peter Principle".

I happen to like him, and I think what he is doing is his JOB! if you want to complain, complain about law that he is required to enforce with little to no money.

I doubt he will be out of a job any time in the near future either. He is doing what the state tells him to do.

[Bill Dayson]

Alan Contreras said a couple of months ago that he was going to be reorganizing the ODA lists. In fact, he asked for suggestions.

Well, it seems that Contreras has combined his degree-mill and non-accredited lists under the heading of 'Invalid Degrees in Oregon'. Then he adds additional annotations on some of the entries.

I think that the changes are a definite improvement. By dividing the old lists between mills and non-accredited, the ODA kind of created the impression that it was endorsing the non-accredited category. Certainly some of these schools' proponents were making that argument: 'OK, we all know that it isn't accredited, but the ODA is verifying that it's legitimate.' I remember opining at the time that the ODA shouldn't let people turn it into a weird quasi-accreditor of non-accredited schools.

Here's the new OR-list:
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

[George Brown]

I doubt he will be out of a job any time in the near future either. He is doing what the state tells him to do.

Correct, he is a civil servant upholding the law of that state. The legislation is to be criticised, not the messenger.

It is a challenging and an unenviable task to perform, but the list is morphing and may reach some level of coherence someday. I know for my Masters degree, I attempted to come up with nomenclature on what exactly defines a degree mill and diploma mill, and it was damn, damn hard. The Australian newspaper list was a clear example of not what to do, but of course it was created by journalists and was never maintained/ scrutinised.

Cheers,

George

[James Grey]

J writes:

Peter,
Take it elsewhere, please.
Thanks for your cooperation.

[J]

Alan Contreras said a couple of months ago that he was going to be reorganizing the ODA lists. In fact, he asked for suggestions.

Well, it seems that Contreras has combined his degree-mill and non-accredited lists under the heading of 'Invalid Degrees in Oregon'. Then he adds additional annotations on some of the entries.

I think that the changes are a definite improvement. By dividing the old lists between mills and non-accredited, the ODA kind of created the impression that it was endorsing the non-accredited category. Certainly some of these schools' proponents were making that argument: 'OK, we all know that it isn't accredited, but the ODA is verifying that it's legitimate.' I remember opining at the time that the ODA shouldn't let people turn it into a weird quasi-accreditor of non-accredited schools.

Here's the new OR-list:
http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

I don't see any change. Am I missing something? The list still describes some schools as diploma mills and others as unaccredited or otherwise.

I personally agree with plcscott that there is a good case for Oregon simply providing an unannotated list of institutions whose degrees are illegal in the state. To do more than that requires research and resources that are beyond the current capability of ODA and involve expressions of opinion on the part of ODA rather than of fact.

I wouldn't delete the George Gollin sections of the site, though.

[Bill Dayson]

I don't see any change. Am I missing something? The list still describes some schools as diploma mills and others as unaccredited or otherwise.
I just meant that there aren't separate lists of non-accredited schools in different categories. Rather, there's one list of 'invalid' degree providers, with annotations.

I personally agree with plcscott that there is a good case for Oregon simply providing an unannotated list of institutions whose degrees are illegal in the state. To do more than that requires research and resources that are beyond the current capability of ODA and involve expressions of opinion on the part of ODA rather than of fact.
I agree with you.

I think that the ODA isn't an accreditor and shouldn't act like it. So it shouldn't try to evaluate non-accredited schools unless it really has the resources to do it properly.

But having said that, I would keep the annotations and provide whatever additional information that I had on particular schools, provided that the information came from public and credible sources.

[dr. latin juris]

New list and this is the nastiest categorization of the list “May be a diploma mill”. :o :o

No solid evidence. :o

And too much possibly, maybe or perhaps. :o

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

[michael]

New list and this is the nastiest categorization of the list “May be a diploma mill”. :o :o

No solid evidence. :o

And too much possibly, maybe or perhaps. :o

http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

I don't think that its all that nasty.... leaves some ambiguity. It is also usually backed up with the statement that degree's from these so called universities do not meet oregon standards. I have to wonder why no one ever complains about michigan or the South Dakota who also have similar laws.

[J]

I have to wonder why no one ever complains about michigan or the South Dakota who also have similar laws.

I think this is an important point.

Personally, I am strongly against laws that make all unaccredited degrees illegal. I have argued that case elsewhere on the board and will forbear from repeating it here.

However, Michigan and SD have gone about this process in a way that seems to me to have greater integrity and sense than Oregon's. By simply listing the schools, they avoid expression of subjectivity and give a clear guideline as to the law. You don't hear complaints about the implementation of the law there as far as the listings are concerned (though you will hear them about the law itself) because it is patently obvious that an effort is going on to be fair, objective and focussed in what is placed on the web. That to my mind is good law enforcement.

Oregon ODA has become diverted from its primary cause into trying to become the flagwaver for the anti-diploma mill and anti-unaccredited movements. In doing so I think it has bitten off way more than it can chew and strayed into opinion rather than fact, which to my mind is evidence of poor law-making and enforcement.

[J]

Can I just add a tiny point of detail?

Alan Contreras is a JD - making him Mr Contreras, not Dr (unless he has qualifications I don't know about).

[dr. latin juris]

Dr. Contreras is a doctor; the Juris Doctor is a professional doctorate.

The most authoritative specialized accreditation society A.B.A., says that. (J.D. = Doctor of Jurisprudence).

J.D. Degree - Ph.D. Degree Equivalency.
WHEREAS, the acquisition of a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree requires from 84 to 90 semester hours of post baccalaureate study and the Doctor of Philosophy degree usually requires 60 semester hours of post baccalaureate study along with the writing of a dissertation, the two degrees shall be considered as equivalent degrees for educational employment purposes;

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that all appropriate persons be requested to eliminate any policy, or practice, existing within their jurisdiction which disparages legal education or promotes discriminatory employment practices against J.D. degree-holders who hold academic appointment in education institutions.

http://www.abanet.org/legaled/council/prior.html#1

Any questions just ask to ABA.

[J]

With respect, Dr Latin Juris, the JD issue is particular to the USA.

In the olden days, when you studied law at law school, you got a bachelor of legal letters degree (LLB) at the end of three years of undergraduate study.

In the 1960s, law schools began renaming the LLB to JD (juris doctor). Some attorneys refused the upgrade their schools offered them, preferring to stay as LLB.

The difference is one you'll particularly appreciate. An American JD is only a first degree in law. Although technically a JD could call themselves doctor, in practise few if any do. The reason is partly that it could confuse them with holders of PhDs or LLDs in law or their equivalent - like yourself. The LLM is also higher than the JD in the US system.

However, the matter is controversial. Uncle Ezra at Cornell University gives a good summing up of the arguments at http://ezra.cornell.edu/posting.php?timestamp=1044334800