Traveling from Unaccredited to Accredited [Archive]

12-10-2004, 12:48 PM

It works for me.

At http://www.aicag.edu/pages/admissions_general.php we find:

3. Transfer of credit from non-accredited colleges will be awarded under the following conditions:

a. Generally one or more semesters of courses at AIC with at least a 2.00 grade point average (GPA) will be required to validate the transfer of credit. Students not achieving a sufficient (GPA) may not be awarded the full allowance of transfer credits.

b. The maximum allowance of transfer credits is 30 credit hours. Under certain conditions more hours may be granted, (pending approval from the Academic Dean's office). Only courses with at least a “C” will be transferred.

Robert J.

12-10-2004, 02:03 PM

yep, works for me too.

12-10-2004, 02:23 PM

Things like this are to my mind a really useful function of the board.

If James or anyone else wants to devote some time to finding more unaccredited>accredited transfer schools, that input will be welcomed here.

Jay2

12-10-2004, 05:49 PM

OK, you asked for it, the list is long and I will add to it slowly as I have time.

University of Oregon
"A student from an unaccredited institution, or one that offers the equivalent bachelor's degree instruction but not the degree itself, may be considered for admission under special procedures."

http://gradschool.uoregon.edu/graduate_admission.html#faq

Bill Dayson

12-10-2004, 06:43 PM

"AND" "THEY" said it can't be done, bad boys, it can, if you know where to look, AND really try.Who is "they"?

I'll repeat some information about graduate admissions at the California State University system that I've posted several times previously on Degreeinfo. This information is several years old and would need to be verified today.

Basic CSU policy is that accredited degrees are required for graduate admissions. But special admissions procedures exist and may be used in extraordinary cases. Here's how it works for graduates of non-accredited schools.

They can't apply for graduate admissions and they will be rejected if they do. But they can apply for undergraduate admissions.

Then they can petition their proposed graduate department for special consideration. If the department head thinks that the student's non-accredited work was sound and credible, the department assigns one or two semesters worth of upper division undergraduate major courses of the department's choosing. If the student completes them with a B average or higher (the GPA that graduate students have to maintain), the student can formally petition the department head and various deans for transferral to graduate status.

So, in the California State University case, the outlook is mixed. It is certainly possible for people with non-accredited degrees to get admitted, but that requires up to a year's additional undergraduate work and entails considerable additional hassle. In particular, it depends on the mood of various academic bureaucrats who have to sign off on it. I'd speculate that some department heads and deans are probably pretty easy, while others may draw a hard line on principle. My impression is that nobody at CSU wants this to become a back door into the system, instead they want to preserve it for especially deserving cases.

Jabbezzz

12-10-2004, 07:03 PM

Many regionally accredited schools have provision in place where the holder of an unaccredited undergrad degree may be admitted to to a master's level program. This usually requires the applicant being placed on academic probation for a semester or two. If the student is able to maintain an adequate GPA, the probation is lifted and all is well.

Jay2

12-11-2004, 10:06 PM

They= Degreeinfo Gang as represented here and everywhere =/RA or no way or so they say, but as I continue to show, it ain't so.

Boise Bible College, ID

http://www.boisebible.edu/index.htm

admissions>admissions policies

"If you are transferring from an unaccredited institution with which BBC has no experience you may be required to provide some or all of the following: course syllabus, notes, faculty credentials, and college catalog."

"more to come"

Jay2

12-11-2004, 10:15 PM

Biola University

http://www.biola.edu/academics/sics/grad/ma_al.cfm

"Graduates from approved unaccredited schools may be required to take certain liberal arts course work (not applicable towards the graduate degree) if their undergraduate program did not include these courses." ;)

12-12-2004, 02:14 PM

I think this is valuable.

It goes to show that many institutions are open-minded about learning wherever it has occurred.

Ultimately, that's an important factor in nontraditional provision, and it is important to see it explicit here.

Jay2

12-14-2004, 02:31 AM

Eastern Oregon University
www.eou.edu/livelearndo/

admissions>transfer information

"Course work taken at a non-accredited institution will be evaluated but not applied until the completion of 35 EOU credits."

Bill Dayson

12-14-2004, 07:32 AM

They= Degreeinfo Gang as represented here and everywhere =/RA or no way or so they say, but as I continue to show, it ain't so.
Has anyone at Degreeinfo EVER said "RA or no way"?

Has anyone at Degreeinfo EVER denied that any accredited schools accept non-accredited work under any circumstances?

You are battling a straw-man, James.

Bill Dayson

12-14-2004, 08:22 AM

I think that this kind of information is valuable. But it's important not to draw unjustifiable conclusions or to promise too much.

Information about special admissions tell us that if someone has earned a non-accredited degree and then contemplates earning a conventional graduate degree, while he situation may look depressing, it's far from 100% hopeless. Options do exist at some schools, even if they involve additional hassles and sometimes additional work.

But I don't think that we should suggest to students who are trying to choose an undergraduate program with an eye towards graduate school, that accreditation makes no difference and non-accredited programs are accepted by graduate schools just like accredited ones.

While most schools have special admissions procedures, they are intended to accomodate especially deserving candidates who might not conform to the general policies. But they aren't intended to simply preempt and replace those policies. In particular, they aren't intended to be a back door for those with degree-mill or clearly substandard credentials.

So graduates of non-accredited programs will typically have to convince the graduate program that their training was credible and sound. Some schools, like Biola apparently, have lists of non-accredited schools that they recognize. (Bob Jones is one of them in this case.) Then applicants will typically have to demonstrate their ability to perform at the expected level. The California State University assigns them a semester or two of additional undergraduate work to assess this.

So my point is that this route isn't automatically open to graduates of every non-accredited school and it isn't always pain-free. But it might be a possible way for a graduate of a good non-accredited school who contemplates graduate work to retrieve the situation.

Neil Hayes

12-14-2004, 08:28 AM

Content removed

We do not talk about other boards and their so called doctrines here.

plcscott

12-14-2004, 12:52 PM

The best way to determine if a school will accept an unaccredited school's credits or degree is to contact the schools registrar. I sent an email to a school that is mentioned in this thread (Oregon) and a few others a while back to see if they would accept a degree from Kennedy-Western for graduate admissions, and was told no. The Oregon registrar replied that their were only a few unaccredited schools that would be accepted. In fact, I contacted over 40 schools registrar's and was told no in almost each situation. The few that had not heard of KWU said that an evaluation would be done after application, but there was no guarantee that there would be any acceptance.

Maybe you could contact these school's registrar's and ask if they would accept a degree or credits from certain selected schools such as KWU, PWU, CCU or BJU. That could be more telling, especially if some are accepted, but others are not.

[SNIP by Robert J.]

From reading this site so far it is a nice discussion board for education, but I hope it is not allowed to turn into another bash the other forum board.

My humble .02

12-14-2004, 12:59 PM

Everybody - this is not a forum to discuss degreeinfo and its policies.

Stick to the topic.

Robert J.

12-14-2004, 08:00 PM

I agree with J, this is an excellent topic and valuable information Jay2 is sharing and providing.

Jay2

12-15-2004, 07:48 PM

Northwest Christian College, "OREGON"

http://www.nwcc.edu/registrar/policies/transfer.html

"Unaccredited Institutions"
Credits are considered for evaluation on a case-by-case basis. Up to 48 credits may be transferred after two terms of successful (2.5 gpa) at NCC. Additional credits may be earned through portfolio assessment."

Jay2

12-16-2004, 06:17 PM

Auburn University
"Requirements for Transfers"

http://www.auburn.edu/
admissions>requirements

"Students transferring from unaccredited institutions may be granted provisional credit. When such credit is allowed, the final amount of credit will be determined upon completion by the student of one year of work at Auburn University.....etc."

Jay2

12-16-2004, 06:35 PM

Now as to the question about RA or no way. Has it been said and promoted, of course it has, all the time.

"If you have benefited from the program/degree and are happy with it great, but I think it is unwise to try to fool yourself and others. For most if not all potential students ANYTHING Except an RA program ia an "UNACCEPTABLE choice. I hope things work out for you."
-----Dave Hayden

Degreeinfo:1-03-2002

http://www.degreeinfo.com/static/forum_archive/3/3099/thread_3099_page_3.html

Robert J.

12-16-2004, 06:55 PM

I'll let this stand (for now) and let Dave explain his posistion, but let's try to keep it civil.

Jay2

12-17-2004, 02:26 AM

Has anyone at Degreeinfo EVER said "RA or no way"?

Has anyone at Degreeinfo EVER denied that any accredited schools accept non-accredited work under any circumstances?

You are battling a straw-man, James.

Mr. Moderator, I was simply answering this question. He asked if anyone at DI had said RA or no way, and of course they have, often. If it was proper to ask the question, it must be acceptable to answer, and in that manner refute the intention of that question. I showed the statement and the link to it in order to prove the truth of my words. THEY DO say RA or no way, as I have just shown, and of course, all of us already knew that.

Robert J.

12-17-2004, 02:32 AM

Mr. Moderator, I was simply answering this question. He asked if anyone at DI had said RA or no way, and of course they have, often. If it was proper to ask the question, it must be acceptable to answer, and in that manner refute the intention of that question. I showed the statement and the link to it in order to prove the truth of my words. THEY DO say RA or no way, as I have just shown, and of course, all of us already knew that.

Yep, my only interjection is for it to stay civil, so far so good. :)

Jay2

12-17-2004, 02:47 AM

Indiana University
http://www.indiana.edu/~bulletin/iub/index.html
University Graduate School 2002-2004> Admission

"Students from unaccredited institutions may be admitted as special students for one semester, if their records are then satisfactory and their department, program, or school recommends them, they will be given full standing."

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 05:44 AM

I'll let this stand (for now) and let Dave explain his posistion, but let's try to keep it civil.

Well since you asked!.....

What I wrote is no one at DI that I can remeber has said "RA or no way" or "RA all the way". These are strawman arguements used by the anti-accreditation crowd. The very same people suggest unaccredited school credits can easily be accepted at most any RA school. Sorry but it simply "ain't" so. Do RA credits have much more utility? Of course. Can unaccredited credits be accepted by accredited schools in special circumstances? Sure. Will they be accepted most of the time with out a lot of hoop jumping? Nope! I think many in the anti-accreditation crowd want to see things in a way that matches their philosophy and they forget to use logic and reason, a very human thing to do.

Jay2

12-17-2004, 08:04 AM

Jay2

12-17-2004, 08:19 AM

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 03:16 PM

"It is clear CCU is a substandard school. To most of us, that means degree mill."
Degreeinfo:5-25-2003 02:13am
------ Dave Hayden

http://www.degreeinfo.com/static/forum_archive/8/8601/thread_8601_page_1.html

Hi James

I am not sure why you have such a need to make this personal but yes that is a statement I made and believe is true. I have discussed CCU with many CCU students. It is or was standard practice for even graduate level courses to consist of reading a single book and taking multiple choice chapter quizes as the only learning methods.

That is substandard to me. I believe since then they have tighten up a little due to their application to DETC. Do I think it is now rigorous? Probably not. Would I recommend it? No, but it may be a good choice for some people in specific situations. Take care.

Dave

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 03:20 PM

Henderson State University
http://www.hsu.edu/
admissions>Transfer Student

"If the applicants are from an unaccredited college, they may be admitted on trial; and an evaluation of their transcripts will be made after they have proved their ability to do work in advance of the credits offered."

"If the applicants are from an unaccredited college, they MAY be admitted on TRIAL; and an evaluation of their transcripts will be made after they have proved their ability to do work in advance of the credits offered."

This is a perfect example of how unaccredited school credits may at times in very specific situations be accepted.

Dave

Jay2

12-17-2004, 05:47 PM

Jay2

12-17-2004, 06:03 PM

12-17-2004, 06:25 PM

(I would like to point out that I'm showing cold hard facts, not opinions. I have given the links to "PROVE" what I'm saying.)

I think you're making a very comprehensive case and backing it up all the way. Those who hold a different opinion have not produced much evidence to the contrary as yet.

I don't see that what Dave has said in his posts here, some of which I agree with, squares with his former statements, which seem a good deal more extremist.

Given that, I suppose the logical question to ask Dave is whether he has changed his mind (if so, why?) or if he stands by the statements he made earlier.

12-17-2004, 06:30 PM

Hi James

I am not sure why you have such a need to make this personal but yes that is a statement I made and believe is true. I have discussed CCU with many CCU students. It is or was standard practice for even graduate level courses to consist of reading a single book and taking multiple choice chapter quizes as the only learning methods.

That is substandard to me. I believe since then they have tighten up a little due to their application to DETC. Do I think it is now rigorous? Probably not. Would I recommend it? No, but it may be a good choice for some people in specific situations. Take care.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I do find it difficult to see how you would classify CCU as a degree mill. To my mind they offer a flexible approach to education but that approach is rigorous according to the evidence I have seen. The BPPVE has tough standards and I am satisfied that they are keeping the mills out of California as a result of their work.

CCU is not Harvard, but it is one of the best unaccredited schools out there. Testimony from Dennis, who has studied there and at many other places, indicates that the program has substance and is not an easy ride. I think it is different from traditional schools in some respects, but that difference does not necessarily mean that it is a mill.

12-17-2004, 06:33 PM

Florida State University
http://www.lis.fsu.edu/prospects/grads/ssd30_exceptions.cfm

Unaccredited Undergraduate Degree:

"If you have your undergraduate degree from an unaccredited institution, but your GRE scores meet the minimum requirement, we can consider your application. Typically, students in these circumstances will be admitted provisionally and are required to take a minimum of 9 hours the first semester and maintain a minimum GPA of 3.0."

This doesn't seem to justify the very qualified statement Dave made: "unaccredited school credits may at times in very specific situations be accepted." Looks like a regular policy to me.

Robert J.

12-17-2004, 06:36 PM

I will say I made an error where it appears Jay2 was responding to Mr. Dayson's question and Jay2 was quoting Mr. Hayden so my previous post implied something to Mr. Hayden for a response when he was not neccessarily obliged to. As expected however, he obliged anyways.

Sorry for the mixup.

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 06:52 PM

"Most (non-RA) I would never recommend nor endorse but if someone wants to throw cash at a substandard school that is their choice."
DegreeInfo- 8-29-2003
---Dave Hayden
http://www.degreeinfo.com/static/forum_archive/9/9720/thread_9720_page_1.html

I assume I have adequately answered the question about the RA or No Way stuff. They do say this over and over, as I have shown. I have more if it is still denied.

No, it doesn't. My statement is that I would not recommend substandard schools. Others may choose such schools and may very well be wasting their money.

"RA or no way" implies that people reject ALL (100%) unaccredited schools. I have found reputable, rigorous, non-accredited schools such as the National Test Pilot School that I would recommend. They, however, are very much the exception when we are talking about unaccredited schools. Most unaccredited schools are either vastly substandard, near degree mills, or out and out degree mills. None of these would I recommend unless someone is merely taking a program as a hobby or for other non-professional use.

Again it is clear that some use these strawman arguments to prove something that isn't true. It is much tougher to debate using the facts. :D

Dave

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 06:56 PM

Florida State University
http://www.lis.fsu.edu/prospects/grads/ssd30_exceptions.cfm

Unaccredited Undergraduate Degree:

"If you have your undergraduate degree from an unaccredited institution, but your GRE scores meet the minimum requirement, we CAN consider your application. Typically, students in these circumstances will be admitted provisionally and are required to take a minimum of 9 hours the first semester and maintain a minimum GPA of 3.0."

(I would like to point out that I'm showing cold hard facts, not opinions. I have given the links to "PROVE" what I'm saying.)

You are pointing out that unaccredited school credits can, at times in specialized circumstances, be used at accredited schools. I certainly WOULDN'T argue with that. What you are implying is that such credits can be easily transfered without a lot searching and hoop jumping. I would stronly disagree with THAT!

Dave

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 06:58 PM

This doesn't seem to justify the very qualified statement Dave made: "unaccredited school credits may at times in very specific situations be accepted." Looks like a regular policy to me.

Ah, then we may have to agree to disagree. I think if anyone investigated the policy in detail with the Registrar they would find severe limitations when any credits would actually be accepted.

Dave Hayden

12-17-2004, 07:02 PM

...

I don't see that what Dave has said in his posts here, some of which I agree with, squares with his former statements, which seem a good deal more extremist.

Given that, I suppose the logical question to ask Dave is whether he has changed his mind (if so, why?) or if he stands by the statements he made earlier.

I think CCU has become more rigorous as they work towards accreditation. Degree Mill is a subjective name that would not use now, but I don't have a problem with the statement I made when taken in context.

plcscott

12-17-2004, 08:46 PM

I think both James and Dave make some good points. There are times when unaccredited degrees and/or credits are accepted, or slipped through, but there are serious limitations to unaccredited degrees. I think rather than just find a policy that states that a school accepts unaccredited degrees it would be wise to see if these schools only accept such unaccredited schools as BJU and the like, or if they will accept schools like SRU, Hamilton, KWU, PWU, or CCU. Not that these listed are in the same category, but with all the diploma mill stories in the news and elsewhere many seem to be lumped in together.

The term diploma mill is so subjective, and everyone seems to have their own definition of one. I personally think a diploma mill is a school that basically sells a degree, and requires next to nothing. I think many of the unaccredited schools are substandard, and do not meet the minimum requirements typically required by accredited schools. Then there are unaccredited schools that have very similar requirements to accredited schools. I have never really understood the argument of rigor, but I certainly understand the argument of standards. I personally do not think that testing out of a degree by one of the big three necessarily requires more rigor, but they definitely require that certain minimum standards are met. That and oversight is what separates them from substandard schools.

On another note, what is so wrong with saying RA is the best way, or even suggesting that it is the only way you would recommend? From all of what I have learned I would certainly recommend RA first, NA second, unaccredited a distant third, and substandard not at all. I applaud schools like CCU that are seeking to become accredited, and climb up the legitimacy ladder. I have no problem with someone saying this is my stance and why, but I do have a problem with people being a jerk to other people no matter if they loath unaccredited schools or promote them.

Bill Dayson

12-17-2004, 09:22 PM

I assume I have adequately answered the question about the RA or No Way stuff. They do say this over and over, as I have shown. I have more if it is still denied.Actually, you really haven't responded to my point. I suggested that you were fighting with a straw man. I still think that you are.

You have obviously spent considerable time running searches and reading posts over at Degreeinfo. During the course of that effort, you must have read many posts written by many people that had positive things to say about this or that non-RA school. You must have seen posts that took exception to flatly and totally rejecting all non-RA programs.

I've personally made hundreds of posts saying favorable things about various non-RA programs.

Why do you so carefully ignore everything that doesn't agree with the caricature that you are trying to paint?

Bill Dayson

12-17-2004, 09:49 PM

I think you're making a very comprehensive case and backing it up all the way. Those who hold a different opinion have not produced much evidence to the contrary as yet.
The problem is that is that no real case has yet been made.

All we have so far are a set of rather vague data points that seem to indicate that numerous schools have special admissions policies.

What we need to do now is derive some kind of conclusion from the data.

So what conclusions do the readers of this thread think that we should draw?

I've already stated my own conclusion up above:

I think that this kind of information is valuable. But it's important not to draw unjustifiable conclusions or to promise too much...

But I don't think that we should suggest to students who are trying to choose an undergraduate program with an eye towards graduate school, that accreditation makes no difference and non-accredited programs are accepted by graduate schools just like accredited ones...

So my point is that this route isn't automatically open to graduates of every non-accredited school and it isn't always pain-free. But it might be a possible way for a graduate of a good non-accredited school who contemplates graduate work to retrieve the situation.

Does anyone think that we should be drawing a substantially different conclusion?

12-18-2004, 01:15 AM

Does anyone think that we should be drawing a substantially different conclusion?

My conclusion isn't, I think, so very different from yours.

I would not recommend that someone pursue an unaccredited degree as a first choice when there is an accredited alternative within reach and when utility in employment or further study is an objective. Some who have different objectives will choose an unaccredited degree for other reasons.

However, I think the points that are being made are of greatest value to those who gained unaccredited degrees at points in the past where there were many fewer accredited alternatives in DL. I have seen such people in the past being told that the work they did and the institutions where they pursued their degrees were substandard at best and phoney at worst, and that they must start over at an accredited school. As we discussed earlier, that's not a view I subscribe to.

Don't misunderstand me - I think there is a world of difference between coming to the table with an Almeda degree and one from CCU. But what I am a strong advocate of is the idea that rather than making a blanket decision that unaccredited = unacceptable, people are actually prepared to evaluate the work done at an unaccredited school with a view to accepting that credit where it can be shown to be of an acceptable standard.

What I also see happening is a little revisionism in some quarters. I have consistently seen Bill, for example, over many years sticking up for CA-approved schools he likes. I see others whose line on unaccredited schools has changed and hardened for no good reason concerned with those schools or their programs, but as part of a herd mentality that seeks to denigrate educational institutions that operate outside "the system" of accreditation but nevertheless require college-level work from their students. CCU is a case in point. There are others too.

By the way, the case I was referring to that James was making was not just that unaccredited degree holders could be admitted to accredited graduate programs, but the case that others elsewhere have supported the RA or no way argument. The fact that Bill hasn't done that does not negate the fact that this is an argument which certain regulars of a certain DL forum push forward with obsessive zeal.

Tony

12-18-2004, 01:21 AM

American Indian College:
"Transfer of credit from non-accredited colleges will be awarded under the following conditions.....etc."

http://www.aicag.edu/pages/about_news.php

Go to- Admissions> General Info.

"AND" "THEY" said it can't be done, bad boys, it can, if you know where to look, AND really try.
I think this may be a matter of semantics. Non-accredited (or unaccredited) means different things to different people. For instance, most lawyers will consider a school unaccredited if it doesn't have ABA accreditation. Another example is when RA schools only consider other RA schools as accredited. The following is from the American Indian College faqs page (the school used as an example in James' quoted passage).
http://www.aicag.edu/pages/faq.php#transfer
"Each student's transcripts are considered on an individual basis. <clip> Courses that you took at other colleges or universities are examined to ensure that they meet program requirements and are from regionally-accredited colleges or institutions. Courses from non-accredited institutions are considered on a case-by-case basis. Only courses with grades of “C” or higher will transfer into your program at AIC."

In light of this...I don't think AIC means what James thinks they mean, you know what I mean.

Maybe other schools using similar language means similar things?

BTW, my brother is enrolled in an ACICS accredited residential college and my mother is enrolled in a DETC school, both on my recommendation. I guess that makes me RA or Whatever, Eh? Still, I agree with Dave that in most cases, RA is the safer way to go.

A-N

12-18-2004, 05:38 AM

......BTW, my brother is enrolled in an ACICS accredited residential college and my mother is enrolled in a DETC school, both on my recommendation. I guess that makes me RA or Whatever, Eh? .

No. ACICS and DETC are National accreditation, RA is Regional accreditation.

Still, I agree with Dave that in most cases, RA is the safer way to go.

I agree that RA is the safer way but in my opinion not the only way.

A-N

12-18-2004, 06:01 AM

My conclusion isn't, I think, so very different from yours.

I would not recommend that someone pursue an unaccredited degree as a first choice when there is an accredited alternative within reach and when utility in employment or further study is an objective. Some who have different objectives will choose an unaccredited degree for other reasons.

However, I think the points that are being made are of greatest value to those who gained unaccredited degrees at points in the past where there were many fewer accredited alternatives in DL. I have seen such people in the past being told that the work they did and the institutions where they pursued their degrees were substandard at best and phoney at worst, and that they must start over at an accredited school. As we discussed earlier, that's not a view I subscribe to.

Don't misunderstand me - I think there is a world of difference between coming to the table with an Almeda degree and one from CCU. But what I am a strong advocate of is the idea that rather than making a blanket decision that unaccredited = unacceptable, people are actually prepared to evaluate the work done at an unaccredited school with a view to accepting that credit where it can be shown to be of an acceptable standard.

What I also see happening is a little revisionism in some quarters. I have consistently seen Bill, for example, over many years sticking up for CA-approved schools he likes. I see others whose line on unaccredited schools has changed and hardened for no good reason concerned with those schools or their programs, but as part of a herd mentality that seeks to denigrate educational institutions that operate outside "the system" of accreditation but nevertheless require college-level work from their students. CCU is a case in point. There are others too.

By the way, the case I was referring to that James was making was not just that unaccredited degree holders could be admitted to accredited graduate programs, but the case that others elsewhere have supported the RA or no way argument. The fact that Bill hasn't done that does not negate the fact that this is an argument which certain regulars of a certain DL forum push forward with obsessive zeal.

Thanks J for an excellent post, you have touched on many important and often overlooked points.
A lot of people completed unaccredited but respected State Approved degrees many years ago and at that time those SA schools and qualifications were fairly respected, certainly had utility and generally were looked upon as a credible alternative for those who couldn't afford to attend B&M institutions for one reason or another or because there were few DL schools.
Now it is recommended that a prospective or continuing student carefully choose an accredited school. Nationally and Regionally accredited schools are safer and have the most utility.
Just my 2 cents.

12-18-2004, 01:52 PM

The following is from the American Indian College faqs page (the school used as an example in James' quoted passage).
http://www.aicag.edu/pages/faq.php#transfer
"Each student's transcripts are considered on an individual basis. <clip> Courses that you took at other colleges or universities are examined to ensure that they meet program requirements and are from regionally-accredited colleges or institutions. Courses from non-accredited institutions are considered on a case-by-case basis. Only courses with grades of “C” or higher will transfer into your program at AIC."

In light of this...I don't think AIC means what James thinks they mean, you know what I mean.

But by using the term "non-accredited" that door is opened to reasoned argument and the presentation of evidence in favour of a particular case. If the intention is to create two categories, RA and non-RA, that does not preclude the acceptance of unaccredited credit, and I don't see that a case has been made to the contrary as yet.

To recall Dave's point made above, I also think much is dependent on individual circumstances. Not every registrar has heard of every school without recognised accreditation. I would be surprised if too many had heard of Nations University, for example. But if I went to AIU with a bachelors degree from NU, I think I could put together a major case as to why they should accept it, including their existing arrangement for acceptance by another accredited school. The leading argument I'd be using, naturally enough, would be that the work at NU equated to the rigor that would be found in a similar accredited program.

12-18-2004, 02:00 PM

Thanks J for an excellent post, you have touched on many important and often overlooked points.
A lot of people completed unaccredited but respected State Approved degrees many years ago and at that time those SA schools and qualifications were fairly respected, certainly had utility and generally were looked upon as a credible alternative for those who couldn't afford to attend B&M institutions for one reason or another or because there were few DL schools.
Now it is recommended that a prospective or continuing student carefully choose an accredited school. Nationally and Regionally accredited schools are safer and have the most utility.
Just my 2 cents.

Welcome, A-N! (We wondered where you had got to...)

There are significant reasons why people may make the choice to pursue an unaccredited degree - cost is a major one. My concern is that when they do so, they should be aware of that degree's likely limitations for a number of uses. RA is indeed the safest way and I don't see anyone claiming otherwise here.

I also see people, particularly at the doctoral level, who are retired from their career or who are self-employed, who pursue an unaccredited degree simply for the enjoyment of it or to gain a particular status, without being concerned as to acceptance by third parties. I say if you find an unaccredited school or program that you are passionate about, and your primary concern is *not* to use that degree in further education or institutional employment, that can often be a choice that will work out to the satisfaction of the student concerned.

A-N

12-18-2004, 03:15 PM

Welcome, A-N! (We wondered where you had got to...).

Thanks for the welcome J, I was around and about, took me a long time to decide whether to join or not.
There are significant reasons why people may make the choice to pursue an unaccredited degree - cost is a major one. My concern is that when they do so, they should be aware of that degree's likely limitations for a number of uses. RA is indeed the safest way and I don't see anyone claiming otherwise here.

I also see people, particularly at the doctoral level, who are retired from their career or who are self-employed, who pursue an unaccredited degree simply for the enjoyment of it or to gain a particular status, without being concerned as to acceptance by third parties. I say if you find an unaccredited school or program that you are passionate about, and your primary concern is *not* to use that degree in further education or institutional employment, that can often be a choice that will work out to the satisfaction of the student concerned.

Yes, I agree that an unaccredited degree would have limitations (and I am talking about the legitimate state approved schools ). It is recommended that a prospective student seek an accredited school.

Bill Dayson

12-18-2004, 05:58 PM

My conclusion isn't, I think, so very different from yours.

I would not recommend that someone pursue an unaccredited degree as a first choice when there is an accredited alternative within reach and when utility in employment or further study is an objective. Some who have different objectives will choose an unaccredited degree for other reasons.
I certainly agree with that.

However, I think the points that are being made are of greatest value to those who gained unaccredited degrees at points in the past where there were many fewer accredited alternatives in DL. I have seen such people in the past being told that the work they did and the institutions where they pursued their degrees were substandard at best and phoney at worst, and that they must start over at an accredited school. As we discussed earlier, that's not a view I subscribe to.
I'm not sure which instances you are referring to. But I'm sure that oftentimes the institutions that grant the kind of degrees that don't receive full acceptance were substandard at best and phony at worst.

And for some people, particularly those for whom recognized credentials are going to be very important, redoing the degree might be a viable option. While '4 weeks' is probably kind of ridiculous, the fact remains that places like Thomas Edison make that possible to accomplish fairly quickly and inexpensively. It's something that probably needs to be considered.

By the way, the case I was referring to that James was making was not just that unaccredited degree holders could be admitted to accredited graduate programs, but the case that others elsewhere have supported the RA or no way argument. The fact that Bill hasn't done that does not negate the fact that this is an argument which certain regulars of a certain DL forum push forward with obsessive zeal.
I think that the general consensus over on Degreeinfo is that some non-accredited programs may be suitable for some students in some situations. But in general they are a poor choice and shouldn't be recommended irresponsibly. I agree with that opinion wholeheartedly.

If you are suggesting that I have failed to make a case that Degreeinfo isn't populated by closed-minded [Edit by Robert J.], I'll be happy to do so. In my next post I'll provide some links to threads in which most of the regulars over there say all kinds of positive things about non-RA options.

But I would like to make it clear that if this thread spirals into an angry ego-battle about another internet discussion board, I didn't start it. My continuing it is only taking place at the prompting of one of this board's moderators who suggests that I still have a case to make in defense of my friends.

Bill Dayson

12-18-2004, 06:12 PM

1. California American University. Comments by several people including myself and Rich Douglas.

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16338

2. Rich Douglas and I argue with Steve Levicoff about the value of unrecognized NAPNSC accreditation.

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9126&pagenumber=1

3. Thread about DL law programs with positive remarks by a number of people

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8216

4. Non-accredited Washington School of Law

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15614

5. Legitimate institution distinctives

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15083

6. Michael Jackson's spiritual advisor

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15083

7. AALE accredited Southern Virginia University

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14057

8. A thread about my favorite CA-approved schools

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8582

9. Non-accredited non-degree-granting institutions

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13636

10. Graduate Theological Foundation

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13570

11. NW Cal Law and Taft

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13331

12. I defend author John Gray

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12923&pagenumber=1

13. Cal Coast psych degree

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12122

14. Teaching at a non-RA university

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12069

15. Metaphysics degrees

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12081

16. ACICS and federal jobs

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11239

17. New schools

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11385

Jay2

12-18-2004, 08:56 PM

AED- 2003-06-29 16:23 PST

"There is a gulf between accredited schools and unaccredited schools, which are more likely to be taken as degree mills."

----Rich Douglas

AED- 2003-06-22 11:59 PST

"Schools that do not have recognized accreditation are not part of our higher education system. Plain and simple. "
----Rich Douglas

Jay2

12-18-2004, 09:02 PM

Degreeinfo-7-01-2002 06:03AM

"While it would be a range, including CCU is rather scraping the bucket. Classes with non-proctored, open book, multiple choice questions even at the graduate level comes no where close to meeting minimum standards."
----Dave Hayden

Jay2

12-18-2004, 09:23 PM

Southwestern Assemblies of God University

http://www.sagu.edu/admissions/transfer/

"Guidelines for Transfer of Credits from an Unaccredited College...etc"

Jay2

12-18-2004, 10:24 PM

"You are 100% correct. However if the apologist just posted their rationalizations at least a few people would be conned into programs like CCU that have "NO" utility or "VALUE." It is better that the apologist get "HIT" then the others."
-----Dave Hayden

"I am more than happy to acknowledge that there is a favoritism among degreeinfo.com members towards RA schools."
----Levicoff

http://www.degreeinfo.com/static/forum_archive/4/4909/thread_4909_page_1.html

Bill Dayson

12-18-2004, 10:39 PM

"There is a gulf between accredited schools and unaccredited schools, which are more likely to be taken as degree mills."
----Rich Douglas
That's true, isn't it? I think that there clearly is a gulf, both in academics and in perception, between the average accredited program and the average non-accredited program. That doesn't mean that there isn't some overlap at the extremes, but I don't think that there's a whole lot.

And I think that it's just fact that lots of people out there do simply assume that 'not accredited' means 'degree mill'. It isn't really irrational for them to think that either, since most of them probably are.

Defenders of non-accredited programs have to be able to convince people of the value of their favored programs. I've tried to do that myself in a few cases, but I don't simply assume that there's no need and that anyone who disagrees with me is a (nasty word deleted).

"Schools that do not have recognized accreditation are not part of our higher education system. Plain and simple. "
----Rich Douglas
I'm less inclined to agree with that one, but it's certainly defensible.

The truth of the statement probably depends to some extent on the meaning that one gives to the word 'system'. If you consult pretty much any list of American higher education institutions, the non-accredited ones simply aren't going to appear.

And one could easily argue that educational certifications that are granted by institutions whose own standards are unknown, unreliable and opaque, probably don't mean a whole lot.

Again, that's where the defenders of non-accredited schools have their work cut out for them. If the expected credibility verification is absent, and if their listeners are even willing to listen to them, the defenders have to provide some other convincing justification of their favored school's credibility.

"While it would be a range, including CCU is rather scraping the bucket. Classes with non-proctored, open book, multiple choice questions even at the graduate level comes no where close to meeting minimum standards."
----Dave Hayden
While I'm not really against multiple choice exams, I agree with Dave that graduate classes that only require passing multiple choice exams are probably substandard.

My understanding is that Cal Coast has recently started requiring that their graduate students produce papers as well, probably as a part of the changes associated with their DETC application. That's one reason that I gave them a provisional 'legit' on Robert J's recent poll.

dhfr

12-19-2004, 06:23 PM

Please move back to the topic of moving from unaccredited to accredited schools. Otherwise we'll need to close the thread.

Robert J.

12-19-2004, 06:48 PM

Re-edit of my own post, 4 or 5 Questionable posts removed.

Personal Attacks protocol re-stated in Annoucements forum here (http://forums.degreeboard.com/showthread.php?t=730).

Let the debate continue on...

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 07:57 PM

Jay2

12-19-2004, 09:15 PM

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 09:32 PM

So be it Mr. Moderator, but I do think it a shame. I had many more quotes to show. I will do them at my board. http://messageboard609377.aimoo.com

So back to the schools.

Troy State
http://www.tsud.edu/bulletin/06.admissions.htm

"Students transferring from "UNACCREDITED" academic institutions who have earned an overall grade point average of 2.0 (4.0 scale) or better may be granted provisional admission.......etc." :o

You cut the quote short and seem to ignore the word MAY which implies only at times.

"Students transferring from unaccredited academic institutions who have earned an overall grade point average of 2.0 (4.0 scale) or better MAY be granted provisional admission. Transfer credit will not be accepted until the student has satisfactorily completed no less than 12 semester hours at Troy State University Dothan with a minimum 2.0 (4.0 scale) grade point average. When the minimum 12 semester hours have been successfully completed, credits from the previous school will be evaluated for acceptance and applicability to the student’s degree program. "

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 09:33 PM

Hi Jay/James

I am confused. Are you modify your term from "RA or No Way" to "Accredited or No Way"? I believe you have made a good arguement for the latter, but you haven't touched the first. Thanks for clarifying.

I am guessing you are NOT going to directly answer the question since it clearly refutes your position.

Dave

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 09:48 PM

I am guessing you are NOT going to directly answer the question since it clearly refutes your position.

Dave

It doesn't necessarily, Dave.

In the past, you've said some hard things about DETC accreditation and the utility of DETC schools. You certainly didn't support the idea that DETC was a viable alternative to RA. I will be happy to back this up with quotes if you would like me to.

That would seem to indicate that some schools that are accredited don't meet your standards of acceptability and recommendability. So it certainly does appear to be RA or no way more than accredited or no way.

Take care and have a nice day.

Jay2

12-19-2004, 09:49 PM

"Wow Paul, it is pretty clear you have an agenda here other than making the best choice in accredited schools. It is also clear that DETC is a substandard choice. The idea that a majority of the people that choose a DETC school are making an intelligent decision base on quality and acceptance is "UNBELIEVABLE". Could a small portion of them have valid reasons other than quality and acceptance? Sure. Is it "ETHICAL" to in general recommend DETC or RA? That's a question that doesn't even need to be asked."
-----Regards Dave Hayden

A picture postcard for the "AGENDA" RA or no WAY!! :D

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 09:53 PM

You cut the quote short and seem to ignore the word MAY which implies only at times.

How could it be otherwise?

The unaccredited schools that would be considered are those that require significant work for a degree. There are a number of these. They form the category of legitimate unaccredited schools.

I can't think of any establishment that would accept a degree from a buy-it-here mill. That is the sort of school that is excluded from consideration. No-one here that I see is arguing in favour of it being otherwise. At the same time there appears to be clear evidence that those with degrees from legitimate unaccredited schools can be admitted to accredited graduate programs.

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 10:00 PM

Hi Jay/James

How many years ago is that post from? Has DETC toughen its accreditation requirements since then? Thanks for clearing that up.

Dave

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 10:03 PM

How could it be otherwise?

The unaccredited schools that would be considered are those that require significant work for a degree. There are a number of these. They form the category of legitimate unaccredited schools.

I can't think of any establishment that would accept a degree from a buy-it-here mill. That is the sort of school that is excluded from consideration. No-one here that I see is arguing in favour of it being otherwise. At the same time there appears to be clear evidence that those with degrees from legitimate unaccredited schools can be admitted to accredited graduate programs.

So your saying these schools listed will only accept unaccredited credits in very limited circumstance from only certain unaccredited schools?

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 10:19 PM

So your saying these schools listed will only accept unaccredited credits in very limited circumstance from only certain unaccredited schools?

No, I am saying that there is a distinction made between milled degrees and legitimate unaccredited degrees in that situation.

So the guy with the Brentwick degree doesn't get under the wire, but the guy with the Columbia Pacific or Fairfax degree might just do that.

Jay2

12-19-2004, 10:22 PM

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 10:28 PM

"So...except for those schools that are clearly on a track for "Regional" accreditation...unaccredited schools are very risky at best, and are probably not worth pursuing."
----Chip White

RA or NO Way> "More to come!! ;)

Hmmm Jay

Great quote but no date or link? How many years old is it and where did it come from? When I search at DI it doesn't come up at all. Could you please provide documentation? Thanks.

Dave

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 10:33 PM

No, I am saying that there is a distinction made between milled degrees and legitimate unaccredited degrees in that situation.

So the guy with the Brentwick degree doesn't get under the wire, but the guy with the Columbia Pacific or Fairfax degree might just do that.

When you say degree mill degrees won't be accepted at all, I agree. When you go on to imply that all other unaccredited degrees will be accepted, I believe you are making an unsupported jump. In both cases, both you and I are making assumptions. All we really know is that is some cases unaccredited degrees MAY be accepted. We don't even know if they have accepted ANY unaccredited degrees. I think they are interesting links but they certainly in no way prove what some suggest.

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 10:40 PM

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 10:45 PM

When you say degree mill degrees won't be accepted at all, I agree. When you go on to imply that all other unaccredited degrees will be accepted, I believe you are making an unsupported jump. In both cases, both you and I are making assumptions. All we really know is that is some cases unaccredited degrees MAY be accepted. We don't even know if they have accepted ANY unaccredited degrees. I think they are interesting links but they certainly in no way prove what some suggest.

I found an interesting quote from Chip that supports what I'm saying.

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=7dcgso%24d2t%241%40camel15.mindspring. com&output=gplain (1999)

"Some graduate schools are willing to look at the individual, his or her accomplishments, potential contributions to the field, etc., and overlook the fact that his or her undergrad degree is from an unaccredited or DETC accredited school. (This is how sleazy operators like Berne and Monticello are able to claim that their graduates go on to regionally accredited schools... it happens once in maybe (wild guess) 500 applicants."

When you factor in the number of applicants that apply from unaccredited or DETC schools rather than RA schools, which far outnumber them, those odds are not bad.

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 11:04 PM

Hmmm Jay

Great quote but no date or link? How many years old is it and where did it come from? When I search at DI it doesn't come up at all. Could you please provide documentation? Thanks.

Dave

Never mind I found the quotes. They aren't from DI at all. They are from AED and 4 and 1/2 years ago. The poster, Paul, even admitted he did have an agenda like I pointed out.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.education.distance/browse_thread/thread/3a1a27ceef330b3/5685a0aedb662d44?q=%22Wow+Paul,+it+is+pretty+clear +you+have+an+agenda+here+other%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Wow+Paul,+it+is+pretty+cl ear+you+have+an+agenda+here+other%22%26qt_s%3DSear ch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#5685a0aedb662d44

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.education.distance/browse_thread/thread/b104c045e286450f/90b0b886e5e3d156?q=%22So...except+for+those+school s+that+are+clearly+on+a+track+for%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22So...except+for+those+sch ools+that+are+clearly+on+a+track+for%22%26qt_s%3DS earch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#90b0b886e5e3d156

I think it is telling that Jay/James is purposefully leaving off all the context to make his case look stronger. This is also around the time DETC accredited several very questionable schools. I think they were very wise to end this practice and even toughen up their standards. They certainly have made many right decisions since then and greatly increased their value. Kudos to them.

Dave

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 11:04 PM

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 11:08 PM

More RA or no way: Bill Huffman on AICS, (now called ACCIS), a DETC accredited school, writing in 2000:

"You can do worse than AICS. For example printing up your own diploma or using a totally fake school diploma mill would be worse. A regionally
accredited school would be much better especially if you don't already
have a bunch of experience in computer related work. I would suggest
that avoiding it like the plague would therefore be a bit strong. I
would say avoid it like a medium to strong carcinogen."

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=g:thl3005401332d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&selm=HbB85.17598%24bt1.177026%40typhoon1.san.rr.co m

Another AED quote from over 4 years ago that involves the infamous Airborne Ranger which has nothing to do with DI. Read the thread and remeber AICS claimed bogus accreditation right up until the day DETC accredited them.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.education.distance/browse_thread/thread/3a1a27ceef330b3/f8c5dac72a2e3130?q=%22You+can+do+worse+than+AICS.+ For+example+printing+up+your+own+diploma+%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22You+can+do+worse+than+AIC S.+For+example+printing+up+your+own+diploma+%22%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#f8c5dac72a2e3130

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 11:17 PM

And here's Dave, writing only last year:

"DETC is a very small "also ran" accrediting agency. RA is the accepted US standard. Name the top 200 schools in the US. Are they NA or RA? Virtually all are RA. Are their good DETC schools that are as good as most RA schools? Yes. Can a person take a DETC degree and make good use of it? Yes. Is it equal to RA in value or utility? No! Is there a chance that could change in 20 or 30 years? Possibly but very unlikely."

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=author:pnwman%40aol.com&start=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&selm=527e78d2.0312151933.11f7dc2c%40posting.google .com&rnum=19 (2003)

Dave, do you still stand by your characterization of DETC as an "also ran" accrediting agency?

Hi Snake

If we are talking Academic Accreditation and you read the full statement, yes. DETC's main business is beauty and truck driving schools, only recently have they developed College level accreditation in a majorway. In the last couple of years they have made some very sound decisions and I wouldn't have a problem calling them a rising star. Were they such when accrediting AICS? No.

BTW here is the whole thread for those that want a clearer picture.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.education.distance/browse_thread/thread/b033279074214699/3d5943d7c60f26ba?q=%22Name+the+top+200+schools+in+ the+US.+Are+they+NA+or+RA%3F+Virtually+all+are+RA. +Are+their+good+DETC+schools+that+are+as+good+as+m ost+RA+schools%3F+Yes.+Can+a+person+take+a+DETC+de gree+and+make%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Name+the+top+200+schools+ in+the+US.+Are+they+NA+or+RA%3F+Virtually+all+are+ RA.+Are+their+good+DETC+schools+that+are+as+good+a s+most+RA+schools%3F+Yes.+Can+a+person+take+a+DETC +degree+and+make%22%26qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#3d5943d7c60f26ba

The Mascara Snake

12-19-2004, 11:33 PM

Never mind I found the quotes. They aren't from DI at all. They are from AED and 4 and 1/2 years ago. The poster, Paul, even admitted he did have an agenda like I pointed out.

I think it is telling that Jay/James is purposefully leaving off all the context to make his case look stronger. This is also around the time DETC accredited several very questionable schools. I think they were very wise to end this practice and even toughen up their standards. They certainly have made many right decisions since then and greatly increased their value. Kudos to them.

Dave

Your points are put into question by the fact that, by your own admission, you were still describing DETC as "also ran" only last year (see my post above). So the "right decisions" you cite above all date from the last twelve months or so? LOL! That cracks me up! :D

It's nice also to have you confirm that you are "pnwman" at aed in your response to my post quoting you as such.

Take care and have a nice day.

Dave Hayden

12-19-2004, 11:48 PM

Your points are put into question by the fact that, by your own admission, you were still describing DETC as "also ran" only last year (see my post above). So the "right decisions" you cite above all date from the last twelve months or so? LOL! That cracks me up! :D

It's nice also to have you confirm that you are "pnwman" at aed in your response to my post quoting you as such.

Take care and have a nice day.

Hey Snake

Glad to give you some enertainment. DETC is NOT RA. While I think it is a worthwhile player and even, as I said, a rising star that doesn't prevent them from being an also ran. Hope I cleared that up for ya. :D

James Grey

12-20-2004, 12:56 AM

This is an interesting thread for someone not confronted with the issues. There used to be a saying that '...everything is bigger in America...' and it is very clear that this is true with issues in the education system. Our debates here really are limited to whose is better or worse ...

I do however wish to add some comments from personal experience/observation:

1. Regarding CCU - I believe that the MBA program is comparatively limp and lacks rigour in both content and assessment. This is from comments of those who are doing/have done it, and some sample material. I would neither recommend it nor appoint anyone because of the degree. However if it was Dennis Ruhl for example, I would have no hesitation as he is a fellow Public Accountant, and an MBA is more likely to refine/round off his knowledge and skills, than add to them. Someone going in to an CCU MBA green would come out deficient compared to people exiting other accredited MBA programs, and I am not comparing it to Ivy League schools. So I believe that unaccredited qualifications cannot be properly assessed without reference to the degree holder.

2. There was a strong contention elsewhere, and I am putting the emphasis on the contention NOT the source of it, that any unaccredited degree raises doubts as to the holder of such degrees and negates the benefit of any other degrees that person may have. An unaccredited degree may NOT add value, but how can it detract? ... unless there is a fraudulent use of the unaccredited degree, and then the issue is the persons character not their education. I regularly get criticised over the varying use of my doctorate - singular [my ACU doctorate was renounced after Hoyer took over ownership of ACU - my Summit doctorate was signed off my Mel Suhd not Ray Chasse as many have contended, and the then owner of Summit, the Association for the Integration of the Whole Person, has now reviewed and re-evaluated my total program, and issued the degree through UIL], but it is unaccreditted although academically recognised by my university here, and I don't need it in my occupation - it would scare people away. I am currently doing further studies here under the university issued moniker of 'Dr French' :-)

3. I received an interesting letter late last year, offering me a paid/funded place in an RA program [I have been asked not to reveal the institution - this I think is a common occurrence] that required 1 year research on site in a northern US State, to be awaded their Doctorate of Psychology in Educational Psychology. The entry was based not on my 2 Australian post graduate education degrees, but on my UIL doctorate. I declined as I did not wish to relocate. This is not an uncommon event as I have found similar situations since, but it not publicised, and Universities making the offers are very strict as to not revealing who they are. This bears up various comments by John Bear over the years as to the rules being bent from time to time. So, no matter how detailed the research may be by readers here, there will be another dimension to the answer that is hidden.

Redlyne Racer

12-20-2004, 03:20 AM

From: Photog (pnwmanNOpnSPAM@aol.com.invalid)
Subject: Re: DETC vs RA: what it comes down to
Newsgroups: alt.education.distance
Date: 2000/07/13

"...It is also clear that DETC is a substandard choice. The idea that a majority of the people that choose a DETC school are making an intelligent, informed decision base [sic] on quality and acceptance is unbelievable. Could a small portion of them have valid reasons other than quality and acceptance? Sure. Is it ethical to in general recommend DETC or RA? That's a question that doesn't even need to be asked.

Regards,
Dave"

Wow, this is too easy. Getting caught in such patent duplicity surely must be embarrassing for you, Dave. Enjoy your coffee.

Dave Hayden

12-20-2004, 03:43 AM

michael

12-20-2004, 04:10 AM

Some of you are getting off topic. Either keep it on topic or this thread will be closed.

Jay2

12-20-2004, 07:33 PM

michael

12-20-2004, 07:53 PM

I think we have had enough examples of dave saying ra or no way. Either back to the subject at hand or this thread will be closed.

Jay2

12-20-2004, 07:55 PM

Fresno Pacific University
"A maximum of 30 semester units may be transferred from unaccredited institutions if approved by the CDC Assessment Office."

http://www.fresno.edu/dept/sps/cdc/policies.html

(more to come) :)

Dave Hayden

12-20-2004, 08:40 PM

"When you apply for a job, entry to a grad school, or other career related post you likely will be talking to someone who understands what the US standard is and that DETC while legitimate is not RA. At that point it is doubtful they will even question it further. They will just "REJECT" it and move on to the next application."
------Dave Hayden Degreeinfo.com 8-04-2003

http://www.degreeinfo.com/static/forum_archive/9/9144/thread_9144_page_4.html

(Sure do sound like RA or no way to me) :rolleyes:

Wow James

You actually came up with ONE post from DI that almost say what you are trying to prove. Even that one you took out of context to try to prove your point. From the exact SAME thread:

"Hi Michael

I agree that both adult education and distance learning have become very important componets of education market.

Actually many RA schools will gladly accept DETC credits. Others may in the right sdituation. Some will outright reject them."

"James

I am really not sure how to take your posts. It has been pointed out that DETC clearly has lower utility and stature. In that sense yes it is substandard. If you are simply stating it is a valid accreditor with what seems like reasonable standards and member schools you are of course correct. That makes your blanket statement untrue."

And of course the post in question in its entirety:

"You are definately correct. When John Smith asks you if your degree is accredited, you can simply say yes and he will never have a clue. When you apply for a job, entry to a grad school, or other career related post you likely will be talking to someone who understands what the US standard is and that DETC while legitimate is not RA. At that point it is doubtful they will even question it further. They will just reject it and move on to the next application."

Jay/James I think your bias is showing. You believe things are a certain way and only see what you are looking for. It is a very human thing to do, but it is important realize it is not what is out there.

:lol:

Bill Dayson

12-20-2004, 08:43 PM

(more to come)

It might be helpful if you told us what conclusions you are drawing from all this.

If a student is considering prospective schools, how do you think that your information should fit into their deliberations?

Should they conclude that accreditation makes no real difference in graduate school admissions? Or should they believe that it does make a difference? If accreditation does make a difference, then what kind of difference do you think that it makes?

Do you think that degrees from any non-accredited school will win an applicant admission in these examples, or do you think that only some non-accredited schools will be accepted? If only some are likely to be accepted, then how might a prospective student distinguish among those that will work and those that won't?

plcscott

12-20-2004, 10:10 PM

I think Jay2 has shown that some schools have policies where unaccredited credits or degrees MAY be used, but I sure do not think he is saying go and get an unaccredited degree.

I also think even Jay2 would agree that RA degrees and credits have the most utility, national accreditation would be next, and then unaccredited sometimes.

I think with all the diploma mills out now, and with all the news coverage of them that many schools that have accepted unaccredited degrees or credits are probably much more skeptical currently then they have been in the past. Knowing what I know now I sure would not chance getting an unaccredited degree with the plans to move onto one of these schools unless I felt sure they were going to become accredited like most of us feel CCU is going to do.

Jay2

12-21-2004, 01:56 AM

University of Vermont

"If the degree is from an unaccredited institution, students must submit both general & advanced GRE scores."

http://www.uvm.edu/~gradcoll/?Page=admissionspol.html&SM=admissionsmenu.html

Jay2

12-21-2004, 11:47 PM

University of Hawaii at Manoa

"Degrees from unaccredited institutions will be evaluated on a case by case basis."

http://www.hawaii.edu/graduatestudies/admissions/html/admissions.htm

Tony

12-22-2004, 03:35 AM

No. ACICS and DETC are National accreditation, RA is Regional accreditation.
Yes I know, hence, RA or whatever, eh? I just wanted my own inane soundbite.

I agree that RA is the safer way but in my opinion not the only way.I have to think that most reasonable people hold the same opinion. I know I do.

Tony

A-N

12-22-2004, 03:58 AM

Yes I know, hence, RA or whatever, eh? I just wanted my own inane soundbite.
Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.

I have to think that most reasonable people hold the same opinion. I know I do.
I agree with you there.

Tony

12-22-2004, 04:05 AM

But by using the term "non-accredited" that door is opened to reasoned argument and the presentation of evidence in favour of a particular case. If the intention is to create two categories, RA and non-RA, that does not preclude the acceptance of unaccredited credit, and I don't see that a case has been made to the contrary as yet.
Fair enough. But, if a school doesn't even accept credit from schools with other CHEA and/or DoE approved accreditation (at least not as a matter of policy), which are legitimate as evidenced by the third-party approval (accreditation), then I think that proving that a totally unaccredited school is legitimate is going to be tough.
To recall Dave's point made above, I also think much is dependent on individual circumstances. Not every registrar has heard of every school without recognised accreditation. I would be surprised if too many had heard of Nations University, for example. But if I went to AIU with a bachelors degree from NU, I think I could put together a major case as to why they should accept it, including their existing arrangement for acceptance by another accredited school. The leading argument I'd be using, naturally enough, would be that the work at NU equated to the rigor that would be found in a similar accredited program.
Sure, and I agree that it can occasionally be done. Still, I wouldn't want to be in a position where I might be able to [ ], if I [], and if they [], as long as nothing changes. Whew!!!! Come to think of it, this pattern is also why I strongly favor RA schools, except in those few circumstances where an NA school is a better choice.

Tony

Jay2

12-22-2004, 06:53 PM

Phoenix Seminary

"Graduates of unaccredited institutions, when accepted, are placed on academic probation for their first year of study at Phoenix Seminary. This probation is removed after 12 hours of satisfactory progress toward the degree (2.0 grade point average or higher)."

http://phoenixseminary.edu/admissions/general/index.php

Jay2

12-24-2004, 09:53 AM

Hey, I love the colors of the forum, great work. ;)

Lipscomb University

"An applicant holding an unaccredited degree or substandard G.P.A., G.R.E/M.A.T. score, or one who is within one semester of completing a bachelor's degree at Lipscomb, may be considered for conditional admission."

http://graduateeducation.Lipscomb.edu/content.asp?SID=52&CID=355

Rich Douglas

12-24-2004, 04:05 PM

It seems common for schools to have, in their literature, processes for considering graduates of unaccredited schools. But one has to wonder how frequently this is done?

According to a large survey of admissions officials conducted by John Bear (and analyzed by me), the answer is almost never. Only a tiny number of respondents indicated their willingness to accept degrees and credits from state-approved and -licensed schools.

When asked, they say it is a rare event, and typically do so from only a few schools with which they're familiar.

In the accrediting world, policy statements like those being quoted are considered "secondary evidence." What the inspector then does is seeks out "primary evidence" that the practice is actually being carried out. That primary evidence seems lacking in this case, at least according to the research available and the anecdotes we've observed.

Rich Douglas

12-24-2004, 04:09 PM

Come to think of it, this pattern is also why I strongly favor RA schools, except in those few circumstances where an NA school is a better choice.

Tony

Very well-stated. I don't think taking degrees from nationally accredited schools is a bad choice, but choosing a regionally accredited school is usually a better one because of greater acceptability of regionally accredited degrees by employers and other universities.

I hope the difference between NA and RA disappears. But that is a challenge for the national associations to overcome.

The Mascara Snake

12-24-2004, 04:48 PM

It seems common for schools to have, in their literature, processes for considering graduates of unaccredited schools. But one has to wonder how frequently this is done?

Sufficiently frequently for policies towards the acceptance of credit from unaccredited institutions to exist at a significant number of schools, as James has indicated here and elsewhere. If it was hardly ever happening, you wouldn't need the policy.

According to a large survey of admissions officials conducted by John Bear (and analyzed by me), the answer is almost never. Only a tiny number of respondents indicated their willingness to accept degrees and credits from state-approved and -licensed schools.

If by your analysis you refer to your Union PhD dissertation (which I read) you approached the entire exercise from the standpoint of bias towards regionally accredited schools. That bias is evident in the conclusion of your work, from which I will happily quote further if you wish in order to prove my point. Your research is many things but objectively presented it certainly isn't.

Even so, on p 136 we read:

QUOTE
When State Approval was offered without a description, almost 96% of participants rated it at least "Somewhat Acceptable." Even after reading the provided description of State Approval, [a negative one],slightly more than 65% of participants still rated it at least "Somewhat Acceptable."
UNQUOTE

When asked, they say it is a rare event, and typically do so from only a few schools with which they're familiar.

Statistically, it probably is rare, when you consider that accredited schools far outnumber unaccredited ones. As John Bear makes clear in his books, however, there is every reason to suppose that there is a good deal more leeway behind the scenes than appears on the surface. Notwithstanding this, 65% is still a pretty good basis for negotiations with either schools or employers.

In the accrediting world, policy statements like those being quoted are considered "secondary evidence." What the inspector then does is seeks out "primary evidence" that the practice is actually being carried out. That primary evidence seems lacking in this case, at least according to the research available and the anecdotes we've observed.

What would you consider primary evidence? Posting the names of those who have benefitted from this situation in the past would infringe their privacy and potentially lay them open to harassment from "consumer activists" of a certain persuasion. So it seems that what James has posted adds up to a reasonably strong body of evidence pointing in a particular direction.

But I am happy to say that in a number of cases I know of, but will not provide details of for the reasons given above, unaccredited degrees have been accepted after full disclosure of their nature both for grad school and for employment in academia. Who knows, perhaps some of your students at Virginia International University (unaccredited) will strike lucky too.

Rich Douglas

12-24-2004, 06:11 PM

Sufficiently frequently for policies towards the acceptance of credit from unaccredited institutions to exist at a significant number of schools, as James has indicated here and elsewhere. If it was hardly ever happening, you wouldn't need the policy.

If by your analysis you refer to your Union PhD dissertation (which I read) you approached the entire exercise from the standpoint of bias towards regionally accredited schools.

No, I do not. My doctoral dissertation had nothing to do with Bear's survey, other than the fact that I cited it in my literature review. Discussing it isn't relevant here, so I shall refrain from doing so.

Primary evidence could, indeed, include specific examples. Primary evidence also includes Bear's survey, which belies the notion that there is much acceptance of unaccredited degrees at accredited schools, despite policy statements that would allow it to occur (theoretically, it seems). (Bear presented his survey results--including my quantitative and qualitative analyses of it--at the AACRAO national meeting in 2001.)

Schools have processes for such things, but rarely use them. This explanation seems to best fit the available facts. Of course, evidence to the contrary would cause one to re-evaluate this position. There isn't any yet, however.

(By the way, the information in question--students being admitted to schools--is not private. It is "directory information" under FERPA, and can be released by schools. If one would like to check on a student's attendance and/or graduation at a particular school, one may simply call the school and ask. Still, it would seem difficult to gather information about who was admitted using unaccredited degrees--how would a researcher know about whom to inquire? But, again, not because of privacy considerations--FERPA clearly allows for such.)

Rich Douglas, Ph.D.

Robert J.

12-24-2004, 07:02 PM

Mascara Snake and Rich Douglas:

I've been up and down on this thread at times myself. But these last exchanges are too harsh and combative for this place especially during the holiday season which I take seriously and my board will reflect a civil and peaceful site. If you continue this harshness and combativeness I suggest you digress from this thread altogether or digress from this site altogether and/or use the ignore user feature so you feel less compelled to get sucked in.

This thread got somewhat side tracked earlier but was looking back on track the last few days now it's all off-track again.

These combative and harsh posts are just not acceptable here. I will be reviewing other posts here as well to eliminate their combativeness too and/or close their threads.

So let's get this thread back on track please.

Jay2

12-24-2004, 08:08 PM

Dave Hayden

12-24-2004, 10:07 PM

You have seen the thoughts and guesses, notions and hopes of those of restriction, you know RA or No Way, but here is the real world view of legitimate unaccredited schools.

Ohio State University

Conditional Graduate Students:

This classification is assigned for one or more of the following reasons. The Applicant has:

1= A baccalaureate or professional degree from an unaccredited college or university.

http://admissions.osu.edu/gradbull/admiss.html

Guesses are a dime a dozen. This is fact, what Ohio State says it does.

We know that unaccredited degrees MAY SOMETIMES be accepted. Anyone who suggests they are accepted often or seldom is guessing, although there is some support for the latter. It seems proponets of unaccredited degrees have as many guesses as anyone.

Dave

12-24-2004, 11:09 PM

We know that unaccredited degrees MAY SOMETIMES be accepted. Anyone who suggests they are accepted often or seldom is guessing, although there is some support for the latter. It seems proponets of unaccredited degrees have as many guesses as anyone.

Dave

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on this one. I see James backing his up with a lot of factual references and would have hoped we would see similar presentation of evidence - rather than simply opinion - from his opponents. Perhaps a list of specific unaccredited schools accepted by a cited graduate school could be found, if it is claimed that some graduate schools operate in this way? If that is so, I would question why that information isn't placed on their website.

James Grey

12-24-2004, 11:18 PM

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on this one. I see James backing his up with a lot of factual references and would have hoped we would see similar presentation of evidence - rather than simply opinion - from his opponents. Perhaps a list of specific unaccredited schools accepted by a cited graduate school could be found, if it is claimed that some graduate schools operate in this way? If that is so, I would question why that information isn't placed on their website.

You want a black and white and fixed rule? From what I gather you won't necessarily get one. What they say is not always what they do, and to set a public statement about this binds them, and they are not comfortable with that. It is a similar situation where they say that they won't accept credits for advanced standing from prior degrees that are more than 5 years old or in some cases more than 10 years old. In reality the time may not be the issue and in many cases I am aware of that has been ignored. Read the rules and you will find an optional entry condition along the lines of '...or otherwise approved by the faculty ...' etc.

Rich Douglas

12-25-2004, 04:24 AM

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on this one. I see James backing his up with a lot of factual references and would have hoped we would see similar presentation of evidence - rather than simply opinion - from his opponents. Perhaps a list of specific unaccredited schools accepted by a cited graduate school could be found, if it is claimed that some graduate schools operate in this way? If that is so, I would question why that information isn't placed on their website.

If I'm not mistaken, I've presented evidence from a study by John Bear. That study was presented at the 2001 AACRAO national convention, cited in my dissertation, mentioned in his 15th edition, and (I think) will be in his just-published book on degree mills. In that study, John found that very few admissions officials were willing to consider degrees from unaccredited schools, despite the fact that some of their schools have procedures for doing such.

The fact that schools will consider such a thing is not evidence that they do it. Bear's survey showed quite the opposite. If there is other evidence to show that these schools do, indeed, admit graduates of unaccredited schools I'd love to hear about it. It would be extremely valuable, as valuable as John's survey results.

plcscott

12-25-2004, 04:26 AM

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on this one. I see James backing his up with a lot of factual references and would have hoped we would see similar presentation of evidence - rather than simply opinion - from his opponents. Perhaps a list of specific unaccredited schools accepted by a cited graduate school could be found, if it is claimed that some graduate schools operate in this way? If that is so, I would question why that information isn't placed on their website.

I have a idea. Pick a school such as KWU, PWU, Berne, Chadwick, Hamilton, or even St. Regis, and then email the registrar of each of the schools listed. Tell the registrar that you have a BA from #$%^& university in business administration which is unaccredited, and you are interested in enrolling in #$%^&'s MBA program. Ask if they would accept your degree for entrance into the program and cite the information that has been posted here. Do not include any information about any of the schools either negative or positive and just let the registrar reply to your request. If the schools will accept a degree from the above schools even under the conditions listed then that is a positive outcome for unaccredited schools in general. Make sure and paste the emails including the school official that replies. That would show the true facts. Until such evidence, I am inclined to believe based on my personal research that such policies are for schools like BJU and others that are very similar to accredited schools in academics.

Rich Douglas

12-25-2004, 04:27 AM

You want a black and white and fixed rule? From what I gather you won't necessarily get one. What they say is not always what they do, and to set a public statement about this binds them, and they are not comfortable with that. It is a similar situation where they say that they won't accept credits for advanced standing from prior degrees that are more than 5 years old or in some cases more than 10 years old. In reality the time may not be the issue and in many cases I am aware of that has been ignored. Read the rules and you will find an optional entry condition along the lines of '...or otherwise approved by the faculty ...' etc.

This is an excellent point, and supports the advice given to people in unusual situations: negotiate.

A bunch of schools indicating they'll consider unaccredited degrees, unfortunately, doesn't give us any idea of how often this actually occurs. That information would be extremely valuable, and only one study has looked at it.

ray1212

12-25-2004, 05:58 AM

Greetings and Merry Christmas,

I have stated it here previously, but I am looking forward to applying to California Coast University after the holidays. I only own them $3,895.00 for a combined MBA/Phd or DBA in Business Administration. I currently have $800 on account. I am being reinstated into their program after a long illness from the 90s. There is allot to be said regarding distance education. We have approximately two weeks until California Coast University has it's visit by DETC and I believe they will be accredited.

My personal philosophy is, that a person truely interested in obtaining a degree should not have to mortgage their future away. Most distance MBA programs run from $9,000 to $20,000 depending on if they are RA or DETC accredited. And if you plan on completing a doctorate, you can tack on another $40,000 at least.

Accreditation is big business. And the universities out there see this. I think in many cases they see the public coming, and take advantage of the situation. California Coast University has been in existence for over 31 years, compared with The Union Institute, who was initially authorized to grant degrees in 1971. And the Union had their fair share of problems receiving and keeping their accreditation. Many people would say RA or "no way". But getting an education is what you make of it.

I am interested in learning what USDOE accreditation is all about. I have seen it mentioned in several of the distance learning forums. Happy Holidays to All!
And God Bless!

Sincerely,

Ray1212

Bill Dayson

12-25-2004, 07:04 AM

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on this one. I see James backing his up with a lot of factual references and would have hoped we would see similar presentation of evidence - rather than simply opinion - from his opponents.
You and James seem strangely determined to pick fights around here, but you haven't made it clear what you are fighting for.

Perhaps a list of specific unaccredited schools accepted by a cited graduate school could be found, if it is claimed that some graduate schools operate in this way? If that is so, I would question why that information isn't placed on their website.
If a student is considering prospective schools, how do you think that James' information should fit into their deliberations?

Should the student conclude that accreditation makes no real difference in graduate school admissions? Or should they believe that it does make a difference? If accreditation does make a difference, then what kind of difference do you think that it makes?

Do you think that degrees from any non-accredited school will win an applicant admission in each of these examples, or do you think that only some non-accredited schools will be accepted in special cases?

If only some are likely to be accepted, then how might a prospective student distinguish among those non-accredited schools that will work and those that won't?

Robert J.

12-25-2004, 07:13 AM

You and James seem strangely determined to pick fights around here,

That just earned you a 7 day ban.

Do not accuse my volunteer staff of "picking fights".

Rich Douglas

12-26-2004, 02:05 PM

Greetings and Merry Christmas,

Accreditation is big business. And the universities out there see this. I think in many cases they see the public coming, and take advantage of the situation. California Coast University has been in existence for over 31 years, compared with The Union Institute, who was initially authorized to grant degrees in 1971. And the Union had their fair share of problems receiving and keeping their accreditation. Many people would say RA or "no way". But getting an education is what you make of it.

I am interested in learning what USDOE accreditation is all about. I have seen it mentioned in several of the distance learning forums. Happy Holidays to All!
And God Bless!

Sincerely,

Ray1212

Congratulations on your return to school. I hope things work out for you and for CCU.

Regarding Union, the school has had two distinct periods where they had trouble. They were granted candidacy for accreditation in the 1970's. In 1979, they were sued in bankruptcy court by students and faculty. There were issues related not only to finance, but to how programs on the West Coast (UGS West) were being operated. Their candidacy was removed, then returned. After significant changes, Union was fully accredited in 1985. They have remained so to this day.

Union's current difficulties are both academic and financial. The Ohio Board of Regents (OBR) complained that Union's programs were too undefined, and that the program lacked sufficient research rigor--there was too much variability in the quality of work being accepted. So Union has implemented the requested changes, and will be dramatically (IMHO) restructuring the Ph.D. programs. It looks like they'll be successful with the OBR. Financially, the USDoE complained that Union wasn't doing enough to track students' progress during their programs. This was a long-standing complaint, ignored by the previous academic administration. Finally, the USDoE put its foot down, withholding the approval of student aid until Union put procedures in place. They did, and student aid was freed up. Because Union is a tuition-driven school, this threatened the university's very existence. But it has passed and Union looks viabile financially again.

Finally, CCU had never before, in its 31-or-so years, applied for recognized accreditation. I was surprised they finally did, and am hoping for their eventual sucess. CCU, Andrew Jackson, and Southwest being sucessful with DETC would raise serious questions about some of the other long-standing schools that have either failed with DETC, or who have never pursued it at all.

Robert J.

12-26-2004, 06:56 PM

I am interested in learning what USDOE accreditation is all about. I have seen it mentioned in several of the distance learning forums. Happy Holidays to All!
And God Bless!

Sincerely,

Ray1212

Ray there is an an article written by a Degreeboard Staff member on USA Accreditation on our main http://www.degreeboard.com website.

Jay2

12-26-2004, 07:23 PM

No opinion, what Seattle Pacific says:

Seattle Pacific University

"SPU will therefore, review credentials from unaccredited institutions at the students request."
http://www.spu.edu/depts/ugadm/apply/howtoapply.html

Jay2

12-26-2004, 07:40 PM

Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on this one. I see James backing his up with a lot of factual references and would have hoped we would see similar presentation of evidence - rather than simply opinion - from his opponents. Perhaps a list of specific unaccredited schools accepted by a cited graduate school could be found, if it is claimed that some graduate schools operate in this way? If that is so, I would question why that information isn't placed on their website.

But they can't back up their "opinions." They wish to discuss their feelings, ideas, thoughts, intrepretations, notions, beliefs, hopes, impressions, sentiment, inklings.

Now here is a fact:

Providence Theological Seminary
"Applicants who hold degrees from unaccredited schools may be admitted provisionally for one semester, and then fully upon completion of that semester with a Grade Point Average (GPA) of "B" or better."

http://prov.ca/seminary/s-aiap.aspx

Contreras just got a good dose of reality about what is and isn't a fact. Opinions are like eyes we all have them, but I show you the names and addresses of real schools and what they say they do, not my guesses/hopes.

DWCox

12-26-2004, 08:45 PM

Ray there is an an article written by a Degreeboard Staff member on USA Accreditation on our main http://www.degreeboard.com website.

--------------------------
FWIW, I conducted a mini-study, STS by emailing numerous tier four institutions as identified through U.S. News and World Report and asked if an undergraduate degree from a DETC accredited institution would be accept for admission to a graduate program. BTW, USNWR is a good source for locating email addys of admission officials.

As I remember well-over 50% of those surveyed said yes.
Some obviously would not respond affirmatively, but advised that individual consideration would be given to all applications.
A significant percentage reported that the applicant if accepted (having met all other criteria) on a conditional basis.
Only a couple outright said RA only.

Take it for what it's worth. I realize that MANY other NG participants would completely dismiss my findings. It's that very reason why I am so happy that this forum exists.

Yes, for some time I saved the email responses and it's quite possible that I still have these responses saved at an Internet storage site. I'll check and report back. I moved these off of my hard drive when reformatting my computer. I did this little (informal) study for the same reason that the author of this thread and fully intended to post the results on another forum. But after spending too much of my energy I decided that the few on this forum did not deserve this level of attention, nor did I have anything to prove to this group.

RXI

12-26-2004, 09:20 PM

I personally want to thank James for all this valuable information in these postings. There are many people who have purchased books, guides, and used consulting services, that chose an unaccredited degree. I have seen first hand, 2 seperate times, that a major state school accepts an unaccredited degree. One was a Columbia Pacific University bachelors that was accepted by a large Tennessee school. It may have been conditional and the courses may have been evaluated one at a time but it worked. With todays situation of fradulant internet schools I would not suggest to a new student to go for an unaccredited degree but I believe James never intended to suggest that. These post help those adults that already have unaccredited degrees and found them useful in the real world and have decided to continue their studies.

RXI

Dave Hayden

12-26-2004, 09:24 PM

But they can't back up their "opinions." They wish to discuss their feelings, ideas, thoughts, intrepretations, notions, beliefs, hopes, impressions, sentiment, inklings.

Now here is a fact:

Providence Theological Seminary
"Applicants who hold degrees from unaccredited schools may be admitted provisionally for one semester, and then fully upon completion of that semester with a Grade Point Average (GPA) of "B" or better."

http://prov.ca/seminary/s-aiap.aspx

Contreras just got a good dose of reality about what is and isn't a fact. Opinions are like eyes we all have them, but I show you the names and addresses of real schools and what they say they do, not my guesses/hopes.

Jay/James

You have shown that some RA schools MAY SOMETIMES accept unaccredited degrees. You have not shown they do so very often or that they have, in fact, actually accepted ANY unaccredited degrees. Has any one argued here that unaccredited degrees are never accepted?! What you go on to suggest is that gaining acceptance in graduate programs with an unaccredited degree is little or no difficulty. Unfortunately, you have shown nothing to even suggest that. Certainly, you have shown it is your OPINION, but that does us little good.

Robert J.

12-26-2004, 09:25 PM

I don't think anyone here at all is saying "Get an unaccredited degree, and you might be able to fly under the radar...".

I see this thread as only a small tool or small hope for someone who has an unaccredited degree, a particular Breyer State grad I've had private correspondence with this past year comes to mind. Where she actually did around two yrs of work there, got a bachelor's degree, then suddenly found out she was in trouble (she tried to get into grad school). She worked hard for two yrs and had 2 yrs of college from a Canadian college but a NACES member screwed her in an evaluation, she also didn't know enough to get a second opinion on her eval, but that's another story. What happened to her? I don't know, I hope she finds my board and I hope she's well.

I am surprised myself to see so many schools with some written policy of "Well, we might be able to work with you...". I definately hope, asking questions, "negotiating" , possibly taking a step back or two by re-taking some courses is tried before "starting over", the example I give she did legitimate work and was very down to see her hard work wasted. Atleast if I were in that posistion, I'd try everything before starting over. Whether or not that's acceptable to you is up to you, I certainly don't judge people that way.

Robert J.

12-26-2004, 09:35 PM

Jay/James

You have shown that some RA schools MAY SOMETIMES accept unaccredited degrees. You have not shown they do so very often or that they have, in fact, actually accepted ANY unaccredited degrees. Has any one argued here that unaccredited degrees are never accepted?! What you go on to suggest is that gaining acceptance in graduate programs with an unaccredited degree is little or no difficulty. Unfortunately, you have shown nothing to even suggest that. Certainly, you have shown it is your OPINION, but that does us little good.

I never got the impression Jay2 is saying the "little or no difficulty". But he can speak for himself.

I was always under the impression prior to this thread that if you had an unaccredited degree you were basically screwed and were terminal in