WGU introduces first competency-based MBA degrees

[dhfr]

Western Governors University (both RA and NA for you accreditation fetishists) has introduced what they claim to be the first "competency-based" MBAs offered in the U.S.

See http://www.wgu.edu/mba

WGU doesn't offer traditional coursework. From the web site: "Instead, progress through your program is determined by demonstrating your competence through carefully designed assessments and completion of a portfolio and a capstone project."

[J]

A very interesting move indeed.

How long before the competency-based DBA, I wonder?

[Bill Dayson]

Western Governors University (both RA and NA for you accreditation fetishists) has introduced what they claim to be the first "competency-based" MBAs offered in the U.S.
I like it.

Or I do, as long as the assessments are credible, and I don't know of any reason to think that they aren't.

How long before the competency-based DBA, I wonder?DBAs usually require original dissertations.

I suppose that an assessment-doctoral program could accept prior publications or original research completed elsewhere, assuming that it was all the candidate's own work.

[J]

DBAs usually require original dissertations.

CCU suggests a potentially different model.

[dhfr]

Brief article in Salt Lake Tribune about the new MBA programs: Education Notes (http://www.sltrib.com/healthscience/ci_2486953)

[James Grey]

I like it.

Or I do, as long as the assessments are credible, and I don't know of any reason to think that they aren't.

DBAs usually require original dissertations.

I suppose that an assessment-doctoral program could accept prior publications or original research completed elsewhere, assuming that it was all the candidate's own work.

There is going to HAVE to be some additional learning somewhere, some pre and mid position assessment, or what does the degree really say? SRU with NA & RA? So no student is going to have any gap anywhere in any subject? I work in CBT and CBA and train traniers, assessors and examiners, so am aware of the pitfalls

Another issue is how do you determine that the work is the students work, and where does his work stop and his cohort's start? What about where he is a team member?

It will be interesting to see how the market reacts ... it is a pity that it is RA&NA because if it wasn't, just imagine how many bottom feeders it would attract?

It was reported on out here initially - I am one of the mnay jurors who are out at this stage.

[Bill Dayson]

There is going to HAVE to be some additional learning somewhere, some pre and mid position assessment, or what does the degree really say? SRU with NA & RA?
My understanding is that WGU breaks degree programs down into a whole set of required competencies. Then they require each candidate to demonstrate satisfactory proficiency in those competencies by exams, portfolios or whatever.

So no student is going to have any gap anywhere in any subject?
I assume that most of them do. So what WGU does is team with a whole bunch of other universities that agree to make individual classes available to WGU students, and the WGU students have to make up the deficiencies by successfully passing the classes.

In other words, WGU is definitely not a "life experience" deal. It's more like the University of London's external exams, or Thomas Edison State.

I think that the innovation (at least for Americans) is applying that model to masters degrees.

Another issue is how do you determine that the work is the students work, and where does his work stop and his cohort's start? What about where he is a team member?
I suppose that for exams, that's not a problem. For portfolios, it would be. I don't know how they address that.

[George Brown]

I am with Peter on this one, and am *VERY* skeptical of a competency based curriculum (for want of a better term) at post-graduate level.

Here in Australia, competencies have only been written up to the Advanced Diploma level (AQF Level 6) and fall within the Vocational Education and Training arena. This is basically 6 months/ 1 year below a Bachelor degree.

Universities here are *very* cautious about competency based approaches to training and assessment, however I believe they have great merit so long as the assessor is both competent in the units under scrutiny, and is competent in assessing for competence (quite an intricate process).

The main areas that need to be covered can be seen here - http://www.developingpotential.com.au/nsw/pcra.htm

I would love to see the competency standards for a Masters by coursework program offered by WGU. Just think, an industry based Masters degree, directly linked to job outcomes. What sort of evidence gathering needs to be undertaken at this level - and the Mayer key competencies would be off the scale! Mmmm...tell me more.

Cheers,

George

[James Grey]

I am with Peter on this one, and am *VERY* skeptical of a competency based curriculum (for want of a better term) at post-graduate level.

Here in Australia, competencies have only been written up to the Advanced Diploma level (AQF Level 6) and fall within the Vocational Education and Training arena. This is basically 6 months/ 1 year below a Bachelor degree.

Universities here are *very* cautious about competency based approaches to training and assessment, however I believe they have great merit so long as the assessor is both competent in the units under scrutiny, and is competent in assessing for competence (quite an intricate process).

The main areas that need to be covered can be seen here - http://www.developingpotential.com.au/nsw/pcra.htm

I would love to see the competency standards for a Masters by coursework program offered by WGU. Just think, an industry based Masters degree, directly linked to job outcomes. What sort of evidence gathering needs to be undertaken at this level - and the Mayer key competencies would be off the scale! Mmmm...tell me more.

Cheers,

George

Yes - being 8/14 through an MBA myself I have looked at how as a reasonably competent CBA/CBT teacher I could formulate a competency list to affect this 'assessment' for what I am doing. Now, considering the general application of an MBA ... wow! How could I rely of the graduate without going through an assessment process as an employer?

[George Brown]

And the irony of it all? Industry screamed out for competency based training/ assessment as they argued university education does not provide the task and management skills required for employment in the real world. Competency standards are written, in consultation with industry, in order to satisfy this demand, and industry turns around and states, 'Hey, you are asking ME to assess them? I've got no idea what assessment is. YOu do it'. :rolleyes:

Cheers,

George

[DRJ]

This thread offered some interesting ideas about the utility or even the advisability of competency based degrees. Interesting stuff. Competency based learning, at least in my opinion, is an extension of the idea of PLA. The question is not what courses you have taken but rather what do you know and can you demonstrate that knowledge in an academically sound manner. The demonstration of the competency is the key.

Now for my real concern. I had a close look at the WGU site and find the award they offer is something called a CMBA (certified masters of business administration). Have I read this data incorrectly? I am unsure how I could state MBA on my resume when the "degree" is CMBA.

[George Brown]

The question is not what courses you have taken but rather what do you know and can you demonstrate that knowledge in an academically sound manner. The demonstration of the competency is the key.


Yes, I totally agree. However, lets remove the word 'course' and replace it with 'competency standard'. What are the competency standards that have been developed for post-graduate level? I have never, ever heard of such animals ever having been developed. If they have, I would love to see the model piloted here in Australia. We have read the articles and heard the feedback from industry stating that MBA grads can't cut it in the real world. Well, it looks like WGU have come up with an industry based model. How does one get hold of/ view these standards? In Australia, all you need to do is go to http://www.ntis.gov.au and they are free to air - what about the yank version?

Cheers,

George

[DRJ]

Yes, I totally agree. However, lets remove the word 'course' and replace it with 'competency standard'. What are the competency standards that have been developed for post-graduate level? I have never, ever heard of such animals ever having been developed. If they have, I would love to see the model piloted here in Australia. We have read the articles and heard the feedback from industry stating that MBA grads can't cut it in the real world. Well, it looks like WGU have come up with an industry based model. How does one get hold of/ view these standards? In Australia, all you need to do is go to http://www.ntis.gov.au and they are free to air - what about the yank version?

Cheers,

George

I am not sure how to segment the quote so I can respond to the different ideas you present but over time I will learn how to make this forum work.

I accept you idea of moving from course to competency but suggest that my original comment suggested course=knowledge and I equate knowledge with competency so I think we agree.

You seem to confirm that competency standards are readily available at the undergraduate level but there does not seem to be any at the post-graduate level. Is this not the unique nature of WGU? They suggest that they have developed this criterion and offer it as a standard. Perhaps a look at their site will answer your question about the standards. I am certainly intersted in this idea and will look further.

I was really fascinated by your comments about MBAs and the real world. I know that Mintzberg and a few others have suggested that MBAs do not make the best business leaders but I have never really heard anyone express the idea they do not "make it in the real world". Can you provide me with a reference point or some reading material?

Any thoughts on my concern about the designation CMBA and if this can legitamately be described on your resume as an MBA. I will expand that question a little by asking if I can get some input on "Master of Arts, Business Administration" which is a degree offered by several US universities. Their online literature discusses this as a MBA but I wonder about the use of that term rather than MA (Business Administration)

[Robert J.]

Any thoughts on my concern about the designation CMBA and if this can legitamately be described on your resume as an MBA.

I'll call them tomorrow and get an answer for you. Based on their website it's just called MBA, except for that one sentence calling it CMBA.

[George Brown]

Is this not the unique nature of WGU? They suggest that they have developed this criterion and offer it as a standard. Perhaps a look at their site will answer your question about the standards. I am certainly intersted in this idea and will look further.

Possibly their own competency standards. However, from my experience, competency standards are nationally agreed benchmarks on the task and contingency skills one needs to be able to perform a job function. The scary thing is, there could be AIU, WGU, Harvard industry competency standards for Masters level, and they are all different. It would make a mockery of a standardised approach - however, I guess if you look at university curriculum , its all over the place anyway, so...back to the drawing board I guess

I was really fascinated by your comments about MBAs and the real world. I know that Mintzberg and a few others have suggested that MBAs do not make the best business leaders but I have never really heard anyone express the idea they do not "make it in the real world". Can you provide me with a reference point or some reading material?

I reckon I printed off a few of the articles when they were released - I doubt they would be available online anymore. I'll have a hunt around, but that topic is not central to my research at the moment, so they are no doubt buried - deep - somewhere.

Cheers,

George

[Robert J.]

I'll call them tomorrow and get an answer for you. Based on their website it's just called MBA, except for that one sentence calling it CMBA.


I just got off the phone with WGU. They said the diploma says "MBA" or "MBA in Information Technology" if you do the concentration route and it's perfectly appropriate on a resume to put "MBA". I asked specifically.

Hope this helps.

[DRJ]

Thanks for the information. It does help in the decision making process to know that the diploma is a MBA. This is an important consideration for the faculty who asked me to make the query.

[J]

Yes, I totally agree. However, lets remove the word 'course' and replace it with 'competency standard'. What are the competency standards that have been developed for post-graduate level? I have never, ever heard of such animals ever having been developed.

There must be a standard in place for the assessment of work at postgraduate level - otherwise how would we ever know whether a postgraduate dissertation had passed or failed? Establishing a competency-based assessment to meet that standard must therefore be possible. If you can set a benchmark, you can meet it.

To my mind, any competency-based assessment at postgrad level, which I am strongly in favour of, must take account of work that makes a significant contribution to the discipline and establishes its author as a leader in his/her field. The natural competency-based models for that are to be found in published work programs (of which there are a multiplicity at doctoral level) and also in models such as those developed at Greenwich University where a mentored project was individually designed to display such competency (not a million miles from the Union I&U's doctoral program). The likelihood at postgrad level is that work such as industrial patents, significant art exhibitions, major workplace projects in business and many other competencies would be able to be taken as evidence of leadership in a particular field and count for credit appropriately. Just as a doctorate may be earned in accredited universities entirely by published work, I see no more reason to place arbitrary limits on the amount of credit that can be gained through competency-based learning than is the case at the bachelors level.

The precise nature of competency-based credit will depend on the field in question. In some cases, testing out will have a place. It would be easy, for example, to devise means of testing out some postgraduate courses in mathematics. The rest should depend on a demonstration of academic standing that can be taken as an equivalent to a doctoral level as that level is normally construed in traditional universities.

I sometimes reflect that the same arguments that are put forward against non-traditional credit at postgrad level are those that were initially levelled against competency-based curricula at the bachelors' level. There is one major change, though, which is the insistence on the "apprenticeship" quality of the doctoral process. To my mind that is the quality that is most inimical to the acceptance of new models of postgraduate learning, because postgraduate study must surely be more than merely a training program for university teachers (and a source of cheap labor for universities to employ postgrad students as "teaching assistants"). It is time for that particular vocational aspect of postgrad study, which ultimately has nothing to do with the level of attainment realized, to be cast aside and recognised for the restrictive practise that it is. This is especially relevant as many who wish to study at postgrad level today have no intention of pursuing a university teaching career.

[J]

The scary thing is, there could be AIU, WGU, Harvard industry competency standards for Masters level, and they are all different. It would make a mockery of a standardised approach - however, I guess if you look at university curriculum , its all over the place anyway, so...back to the drawing board I guess

I think that is a very significant statement.

What indeed would make you think that those differences are confined to competency-based curricula?

In truth, accredited universities may call programs by similar names that vary widely in scope and rigor. The standardised approach you refer to is largely a myth - that said, Australia comes closer to it than almost anywhere else I can think of. I would also argue that institutions *should* be free to set their own standards and curricula in a free market, without needing extensive governmental interference in their affairs.

In the USA, we see a wide variance in what would be accepted by different regional accrediting agencies. Some universities have moved operations and shopped around specifically so it would be easier for them to become accredited. In the event that Charter Oak was in CA, it certainly wouldn't be offering 100% competency-based bachelors programs.

[dhfr]

Article on WGU from Stateline.org: Western Governors University Improves its Grade (http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?pa=story&sa=showStoryInfo&id=421442)