INSEADious Ideas About Accreditation

[Bill Dayson]

J made some interesting remarks on the never-ending (and increasingly pointless) Robert de Sorbon thread. Since the issues are only tangentially related to RdS's legitimacy, I'm starting a new thread over here in the accreditation forum.

In response to my last, I have been looking at the website of INSEAD, a private business school (with a stellar reputation) which Alain cited above:

www.insead.edu

I cannot yet find reference to their diplomas being state approved by any of the processes listed on the Egide site...

Translation:
It is said that INSEAD has no "need" of the "visa du diplome" of the Ministry of Education and of the homologation of the State. I ask myself throughout, why do people speak frequently of ESSEC or HEC (other French business schools) whilst completely ignoring INSEAD? You might think that this School is completely unknown amongst the Grandes Ecoles although it is THE supreme Grande Ecole of Business. Perhaps because INSEAD doesn't "need" to make itself known thus? Who knows?

Implication - INSEAD is completely independent from state control and approval in France - can this be true?

That's the first question. Is it even legally possible for the equivalent of an American non-accredited school to operate in France? I have been repeatedly assured by people whose word I don't completely trust that non-accredited schools can't exist in Europe. Only properly chartered schools can legally operate, and quality assurance is built into the charter process.

Even if it's the case that this question doesn't matter a whole lot for iNSEAD, assuming that it's really prestigious, the possibility of schools operating legally without meeting any quality standards would throw open the doors to the degree mills. And these doubtful wonders could snuggle up to INSEAD and bask in reputation by association: "We have the same status as world-famous INSEAD, so we must be world class too". (We may or may not be seeing precisly that on the other thread.)

What is more, what we would appear to have then is a partnership of an unaccredited French business school with the business school of a top RA university (Wharton).

It's possible that INSEAD is bogus. We have seen prestigious American universities making foolish mistakes before this.

But assuming that INSEAD is a fine and highly prestigious institution, it isn't unprecidented for quality non-accredited institutions to receive the recognition of highly credible parties in specialized situations.

I must have written a hundred posts about that at Degreeinfo.

The CA-approved Institute of Buddhist Studies offers its masters degree jointly with the high-profile regionally accredited Graduate Theological Union. What's more, IBS is one of the recipients of a prestigious Numata endowed chair in Buddhist Studies, along with universities like Harvard, Oxford and Toronto.

[Bill Dayson]

A few key questions:

Can we conclude from the earlier sources in this thread that Sorbon enjoys the same level of French recognition (or lack of) that INSEAD has?

If by 'French recognition', we mean status within a formal aademic quality assurance system, then the answer is probably 'yes'. (That's assuming both that the information about INSEAD and my current opinion about ESRdS are accurate). Both schools would lack the expected formal external verification of their standards.

But if we mean something broader and less formal by 'French recognition', then the answer is obviously 'no'. Assuming that INSEAD is prestigious, then INSEAD is prestigious. ESRdS isn't.

How then do we compare that level of recognition to the US system? Is it the equivalent of accreditation or of state approval?

Again assuming that the information is correct, I'd rate INSEAD's formal Franch recognition as something considerably less impressive than CA-approval. California acually enforces standards, makes site visits and everything. It dosn't compare with what the regional accreditors require, but it's something. Something is better than nothing.

Given that the reputation of INSEAD is such that, whilst not participating in what appears to be the French schemes of state degree recognition, its degrees are accepted in the US as the equivalent of RA, what more, if anything, would Sorbon need to do in terms of its academic standing to achieve an equivalent status of comparability?

Play the academic game. Publish research. Make presentations. Host conferences. Edit journals Collaborate. Win grants and awards. Provide advice to business and government.

I doubt that ESRdS could ever manage that, at least as long as it emphasizes 'VAE'. You don't see a lot of scholarship coming out of Thomas Edison State College either, but at least the Middle States Association has inspected and vouches for its PLA activities.

But doesn't this blow GAAP/reliance on external approval as a yardstick for judging schools out of the water?

Of course not.

What if we applied the argument that reputation, not external approval, should be our key to evaluating low-tier RA US institutions? Would the argument that Podunk State's degree is equivalent to Harvard's be so strong then?

It would still work locally. I took calculus at City College of San Francisco. UC Berkeley accepts CCSF calculus classes in transfer, even for science and engineering majors. I expect that they would continue to do that even if the regional accreditor (WASC) disappeared tomorrow. But the University of Chicago might have reservations, because they don't know CCSF.

California State University Dominguez Hills is rather obscure, but it nevertheless has one of the best programs in orthotics and prosthetics (artificial limbs) in California. It does its clinicals at Rancho Los Amigos National Rehabilitation Center and is well regarded in that specialty.

That's the thing with reputation. It only works where the reputations are already known. Less prominent institutions have reputations that are more local and more restricted to particular fields than the prestige schools.

If those low-ranking schools weren't protected by the RA argument, would they really have the ability to compete in today's market?

Perhaps they would be at a greater disadvantage, at least outside the circle of people that are already familiar with a particular school. But that doesn't mean that the lesser known schools don't offer good valuable programs.

Accreditation gives people who are unfamiliar with a particular school reason to trust that it meets expected standards.

Without accreditation, it might still be possible to research a school by yourself, observing its scholarly productivity and the reactions of the academic and professional communities to it, But most employers and clients aren't really in a position to do that and don't want to waste the time and effort necessary.

And when we are talking about foreign schools like ESRdS and INSEAD, where language problems exist and the foreign professional communities are distant and obscure, it's going to be hard.

I mean, I'm personally unfamiliar with INSEAD. Business isn't my field and I've never paid very much attention to foreign B-schools. I don't really know whether INSEAD is prestigious or not. It's been suggested that this is the most prominent business school in France, but how would I know? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

So if I'm hiring and an INSEAD graduate's application crosses my desk, I would try to verify that it has the French equivalent of American accreditation (whatever that is). If it doesn't have that, then I'd probably reject the application. That doesn't prove that INSEAD is a bad school. It means that I don't personally know it and don't want to take unnecessary chances, especially if I have competing applications from graduates of B-schools that I already trust are sound.

[J]

It's possible that INSEAD is bogus. We have seen prestigious American universities making foolish mistakes before this.

Possible, but unlikely. Forbes magazine, for example, thinks INSEAD is a doozy, ranking it #1 out of 18 non-US business schools in 2003. The other stats here, for example the 5 year average salary gain for MBAs of $148,000, are pretty impressive:

http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/95/2003/LIR.jhtml?passListId=95&passYear=2003&passListType=Misc&uniqueId=950001&datatype=Misc

I doubt that ESRdS could ever manage that, at least as long as it emphasizes 'VAE'. You don't see a lot of scholarship coming out of Thomas Edison State College either, but at least the Middle States Association has inspected and vouches for its PLA activities.

I think that raises another good point. If a school bases itself entirely on PLA, is it reasonable to measure its output in the same way as a research-based school? Or is it perhaps a different animal entirely? I would have said that a major outcome for a PLA school will consist of graduate acceptance by employers, since PLA is by definition an employment/experience related process.

What, I wonder, would TESC look like without the RA factor? In what ways would its PLA processes and outcomes be regarded if we didn't have the MSA backing it up? PLA in unaccredited schools becomes a very prominent whipping-boy among supporters of accreditation, but what is it about that practise specifically that makes it more vulnerable than other forms of DL assessment? If a school is going to cheat, for example, it is just as easy for it to set an examination that no-one can fail as it is for it to grant PLA credit inappropriately. Isn't part of this coming back to that old canard that nontraditional outcome-driven assessment has this magical cut-off above the bachelor's level where everything suddenly reverts to process again?

Again assuming that the information is correct, I'd rate INSEAD's formal Franch recognition as something considerably less impressive than CA-approval. California acually enforces standards, makes site visits and everything. It dosn't compare with what the regional accreditors require, but it's something. Something is better than nothing.

We do, however, have Alain's most recent post referring to a site visit by the local authorities. Assuming this is correct, something rather than nothing appears to be going on - though what this is it is difficult to be certain.

So if I'm hiring and an INSEAD graduate's application crosses my desk, I would try to verify that it has the French equivalent of American accreditation (whatever that is). If it doesn't have that, then I'd probably reject the application. That doesn't prove that INSEAD is a bad school. It means that I don't personally know it and don't want to take unnecessary chances, especially if I have competing applications from graduates of B-schools that I already trust are sound.

But if you did that (see the Forbes article above) you'd just have missed out on a grad of one of the world's top business schools. Doesn't that mean that more than just a check on US-equivalent accreditation is needed to really know what you're dealing with?

[Bill Dayson]

What, I wonder, would TESC look like without the RA factor? In what ways would its PLA processes and outcomes be regarded if we didn't have the MSA backing it up?

Like I said in my last post, it would become a matter of TESC's reputation. Among those already familiar with TESC and who trust what it's doing, the elimination of accreditation probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.

But among those who know nothing about the school, but who are presented with a four year TESC bachelors degree earned in less than one year by 'testing out', alarm bells would probably ring loudly. Without trusted and reliable outside parties verifying that what TESC is doing is sound, the school's diplomas would probably be widely rejected.

PLA in unaccredited schools becomes a very prominent whipping-boy among supporters of accreditation

The problem is that PLA schools aren't educational institutions, they are certification institutions. But what value is a certification that isn't recognized out in the community? What use is a certification that could mean anything or nothing?

But if you did that (see the Forbes article above) you'd just have missed out on a grad of one of the world's top business schools. Doesn't that mean that more than just a check on US-equivalent accreditation is needed to really know what you're dealing with?

My point was that it's unrealistic to expect employers and clients to undertake minute personal examinations of all of the schools listed on applicants and service providers' resumes.

Unless there's some reliable agency that people unfamiliar with particular schools can consult, they are either going to be forced into accepting a lot of things on blind faith, or else going with the familiar safe choices, even if it means excluding some excellent albeit unfamiliar alternatives.

Certainly, in real life hiring situations, particularly where graduate degrees are involved, interviewers typically are already familiar with the subject of the degree, know the major schools, are looking for a candidate with specific qualities and so on. So a real life business interviewer might very well be acquainted with INSEAD, if it's all you say it is.

But I'm not. And I'm unlikely to make detailed investigations of every mystery unaccredited university in the off-chance that it might turn out to be a gem.

[John D]

To find the right answers one first needs to ask the right questions.

With all due respect, I don't think that the right questions are being asked here mainly because most questions seem to have an American accreditation perspective.

In France, for example, a school of higher education needs to obtain a government license to operate. This license will be issued under a specific government act depending on the nature of the school. The school will have to comply with that act in order to obtain this government license. I don't know the specifics, but it is almost certain that in a country like France with one of the longest and best traditions in education, strict and rigorous controls and regulations must be applied before such a license is issued.

"Accredited" vs "licensed" vs "unaccredited" (in the sense of U.S. state licensed and unaccredited) schools means nothing in French terms. However, unlicensed, which means unrecognized, schools cannot operate legally in France with the exception, perhaps, of some foreign based schools.

Another unique feature of the French education system, of which I made a mention in another thread but it has not been mentioned elsewhere, is that properly licensed private Ecoles are no allowed to issue some of the national degrees issued by public universities. "National" degrees in France does not mean degrees that are recognized across the nation while other degrees are only recognized locally as many have interpreted this term. "National" is called one of the two currently co-existing degree systems in France (see my post about national and LMD degrees in another thread), both of which have exactly the same value and validity. So, although private Ecoles are not allowed by law to grant some of the national degrees, their degrees are as valid and as acceptable across the nation as the national degrees from public universities.

The French hope to standardize their degree system soon so that it is understandable and in harmony with systems in other countries. For the time being though, there are two co-existing degree systems in France and only public universities are allowed to grant all degrees, both national and LMD.

John D

[John D]

I will insist on what I have stated in other threads and other people can check that for themselves, that is, an unlicensed outfit cannot operate, or even exist, in France as a French school granting French degrees.

In France, and in most other European Union countries, one needs a specific license to do almost anything, even sell hot chestnuts on a Paris street corner. One cannot simply incorporate a company one of whose aims is to grant degrees and, then, just go ahead and call his company a French "school" that grants French "degrees". Anyone who is foolish enough to do such a thing, his "school" will be closed down and he will be arrested and sent to jail in no time at all. However, as I have already pointed out, a foreign based company may open a branch in France, or other EU country, and offer degrees through its parent school abroad as part of the services the company provides. The difference is that such foreign companies cannot call themselves French schools and cannot call their degrees French degrees. They may call themselves, for example, a Dominican school that grants Dominican degrees.

So, I find it very difficult to believe that INSEAD has been operating for the past 40 years as an "unaccredited" school based in France of all countries. However, it is difficult to understand what my American friends mean by the term "unaccredited" school in this case. If they mean unlicensed, this is out of the question. INSEAD must be either licensed under a specific act of the French government or it is not based in France at all. But if, on the other hand, my American friends mean not licensed in the way public universities are licensed, they may be right as private institutions are licensed under different acts of government to those public schools are licensed under. They both have, however, the same validity. Some of the top French schools are private.

John D

[Bill Dayson]

To find the right answers one first needs to ask the right questions.

With all due respect, I don't think that the right questions are being asked here mainly because most questions seem to have an American accreditation perspective.

In the United States, the word 'accreditation' refers to a process that makes the thing accredited more credible. In the case of higher education, it refers to academic quality assurance.

It doesn't really matter what this or that country chooses to call it. It doesn't even matter who performs it, so long as they are reliable.

In France, for example, a school of higher education needs to obtain a government license to operate. This license will be issued under a specific government act depending on the nature of the school. The school will have to comply with that act in order to obtain this government license. I don't know the specifics, but it is almost certain that in a country like France with one of the longest and best traditions in education, strict and rigorous controls and regulations must be applied before such a license is issued.

Translation: Just have faith, even in the case of extremely questionble schools, because... well, because it's France. Sorry, I don't buy it.

The EGIDE site discusses forms of state recognition of private institutions.

"Private institutions can be further subdivided into two categories:

Grant-assisted private institutions (établissements sous contrat)... are very similar to state-funded institutions, as regards both course content and the recruitment of teaching staff. They receive a subsidy from the local government (région or département), and the teaching staff are paid directly by the state...

Independent private institutions (établissements hors contrat): Independent private institutions are totally independent of the state, and they usually charge high fees."

We need to know what the words 'totally independent of the state' mean here. ('Totally independent of the state' in financial terms, in regulatory terms, or both?) But one way to interpret it is that if private institutions don't receive local or national funds, then they can operate pretty much as they see fit as regard to course content (or lack of it).

It sounds as if these independent private schools can then voluntarily request state recognition if they wish:

The institution may be recognized by the Ministry for Youth, National Education and Research, following an audit covering teaching staff, course content and timetables. Recognition (reconnaissance) is a prerequisite to state certification for the diplomas awarded by the institution (visa du diplôme).

The diplomas awarded by the institution may be certified by the Ministry for Youth, National Education and Research, through the visa du diplôme process, following an audit covering aspects such as teaching quality, admission requirements and teaching methods. This process is only open to institutions that have been recognized by the state for at least five years."

Both this quoted text and the remarks J posted about INSEAD, imply that these forms of recognition/certification are voluntary for private institutions, at least those that don't receive government grants.

"Accredited" vs "licensed" vs "unaccredited" (in the sense of U.S. state licensed and unaccredited) schools means nothing in French terms. However, unlicensed, which means unrecognized, schools cannot operate legally in France with the exception, perhaps, of some foreign based schools.

Whatever you choose to call it, there seems to be a clear difference between:

A. Certification of a private institution's degree program by the Ministry for Youth, National Education and Research through the 'vise du diplome' process. (This sounds to me as if it's similar to American accreditation.)

B. Preliminary recognition ('reconnaissance') of a private institution by the Ministry. (This might be similar to American candidacy for accreditation.)

C. Whatever situation exists if a private school hasn't undergone either one. Presumably this is possible. I assume some kind of licensing and recognition would still be necessary, such as a business license and perhaps some generic permission to operate as a school.

I still think that it's probably simplistic and perhaps even dangerous to believe that if a private school is operating legally in France, that Americans should automatically and uncritically accept that it has the equivalent of accreditation and has undergone a full and credible quality assurance process and has been found to offer sound academics.

[Geek]

Help me out here guys and dolls (are there even any here?):

Isn't a US school evaluated for educational greatness regularly, ensures standards are met, results are analyzed then critiqued and changes are made over and over and over etc. etc. etc. etc.

Wouldn't another school need to go through this to be "equivalent" ? I mean what's the real argument here? There is none. It's not equivalent. What's the matter with you people?

[sorbon]

It's possible that INSEAD is bogus. We have seen prestigious American universities making foolish mistakes before this.

FYI only,


INSEAD in FONTAINBLEAU IS THE NUMBER ONE BUSINESS SCHOOL OF EUROPE...AND AMONG THE TOP TEN IN THE WORLD AS PER THE "FT" CLASSIFICATION.

Just an unbiased information from a fellow Etablissement d'enseignement supérieur privé