VAE and ECOLE SUPERIEURE UNIVERSITAIRE ROBERT DE SORBON

[sorbon]

Bonjour, HI

Alain Michal and Clarence de la Faide from the admissions of the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon www.sorbonedu.com www.sorbon-uni.fr are ready to answer your question about the French VAE Law. Robert de Sorbon is a not for profit "établissement d'enseignement supérieur."

To resume:
The VAE law allows French Institutions of Higher Education to grand regular recognized accredited degrees through the Validation des Acquis de l'Expérience (Work Experience) through a defined Jury procedure.

This VAE is established through the Law of 17 Janvier 2002 et its "décret d’application" du 24 avril 2002 and is part of the code de l'Education de la République Française L 355-1

L'Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a French registrated Institution of Higher education (L731-1) authorized to bestow diplomas (L731-14). We cover many fields of studies, but do not volontarly grant dregrees in Medicine, Veterinary science, Nursing, Law.

Our sites are :
www.sorbonedu.com
www.sorbon.fr
www.sorbon-uni.fr

To contact us: admiss@sorbonedu.com
Sincerely yours

[mosbybranch]

Which school name will be on the diploma? Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon or Ecole Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon ??

[Robert J.]

Bonjour, HI

Alain Michal and Clarence de la Faide from the admissions of the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon www.sorbonedu.com www.sorbon-uni.fr are ready to answer your question about the French VAE Law. Robert de Sorbon is a not for profit "établissement d'enseignement supérieur."

To resume:
The VAE law allows French Institutions of Higher Education to grand regular recognized accredited degrees through the Validation des Acquis de l'Expérience (Work Experience) through a defined Jury procedure.

This VAE is established through the Law of 17 Janvier 2002 et its "décret d’application" du 24 avril 2002 and is part of the code de l'Education de la République Française L 355-1

L'Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a French registrated Institution of Higher education (L731-1) authorized to bestow diplomas (L731-14). We cover many fields of studies, but do not volontarly grant dregrees in Medicine, Veterinary science, Nursing, Law.

Our sites are :
www.sorbonedu.com
www.sorbon.fr
www.sorbon-uni.fr

To contact us: admiss@sorbonedu.com
Sincerely yours

I will be watching VAE in the next few months and years to see if there's acceptance not only in France but other parts of the world. I think the general consensus is still high suspicion (or worse) among the online folks. However, I think many want to believe the process is valid. I'm a "jury is still out" opinion and haven't passed judgement yet.

I do invite this small online community to ask probing questions (better than I can) about the VAE process to help us all understand it better.

[J]

Could I ask please that you name some schools in France that have a policy of accepting your degrees and credits for further study?

Would, for example, the Universite de Paris accept a Maitrise from you for entrance to a postgraduate programme?

[sorbon]

Which school name will be on the diploma? Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon or Ecole Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon ??
Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon

[sorbon]

Bonjour, HI

Alain Michal and Clarence de la Faide from the admissions of the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon www.sorbonedu.com www.sorbon-uni.fr are ready to answer your question about the French VAE Law. Robert de Sorbon is a not for profit "établissement d'enseignement supérieur."

To resume:
The VAE law allows French Institutions of Higher Education to grand regular recognized accredited degrees through the Validation des Acquis de l'Expérience (Work Experience) through a defined Jury procedure.

This VAE is established through the Law of 17 Janvier 2002 et its "décret d’application" du 24 avril 2002 and is part of the code de l'Education de la République Française L 355-1

L'Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a French registrated Institution of Higher education (L731-1) authorized to bestow diplomas (L731-14). We cover many fields of studies, but do not volontarly grant dregrees in Medicine, Veterinary science, Nursing, Law.

Our sites are :
www.sorbonedu.com
www.sorbon.fr
www.sorbon-uni.fr

To contact us: admiss@sorbonedu.com
Sincerely yours

I will be watching VAE in the next few months and years to see if there's acceptance not only in France but other parts of the world. I think the general consensus is still high suspicion (or worse) among the online folks. However, I think many want to believe the process is valid. I'm a "jury is still out" opinion and haven't passed judgement yet.

I do invite this small online community to ask probing questions (better than I can) about the VAE process to help us all understand it better.

For the French point of view it is the Law Alll French universities (public and private) applies it with various degree of intensity.

. About recognition the countries that have ratified the Lisbon convention (11/4/1997) "Convention on the Recognition of Qualifications concerning Higher Education in the European Regionon" must (not should) recognize it. The US signed it . All other countries must accept degrees obtained through VAE and must recognise it . Here is the list of the countries:
Albania
Andorra
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Belgium
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Georgia
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Moldova
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
San Marino
Serbia and Montenegro
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Turkey
Ukraine
United Kingdom

Non-member States of the Council of Europe

Australia
Belarus
Canada
Holy See
Israel
Kazakhstan
Kyrghyz Republic
Monaco
Tajikistan
United States


This is the legal situation on VAE procedure in france

1) it is Legal
2) It is recognized by France
3) Therefore the countries that have signed the Lisbonconvention should accept it like the French.

Sorry to be so legalist.
But I think that those facts could be interesting for the readers.

[sorbon]

Could I ask please that you name some schools in France that have a policy of accepting your degrees and credits for further study?

Would, for example, the Universite de Paris accept a Maitrise from you for entrance to a postgraduate programme?

I gladly respond:

All French universities private and public apply the VAE. like Paris I, ESC Pau, Universi†ee de Bretagne etc.

As I said before it is the Law. There are 12 universities in Paris and by law they can not refuse Post graduate or Any studies because the degree was obtained through the VAE procedure. It is written in the Code de l'Education. L 351

French has a lot a defects but we are a Law obeying country.
I hope it replies to your question. I appreciate very much this forum

[Dennis Ruhl]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

[sorbon]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

Thank you for your comments. We are fully operational in France and have to do the numerous French registration process and controls which took time.

I remain at your disposal.

[oxpecker]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

[Robert J.]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

Thanks oxpecker for posting this link, I might put that on the "Links" page permanently.

My question is to Alain:

It appears the United States signed the treaty but has not ratified it and has no "force into effect" date. I'm not an expert on international law, but it would appear to me under the Lisbon Convention there's some argument for acceptance for the countries that have signed and ratified, but the United States is not one of them.

Can you provide us with an explanation why my interpretation is not valid?

Thank you,

[mosbybranch]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

Belarus and Kyrghyz Republic have the date for Ratification & Entry into force, but no signature date. Strange. It tells me that I do not know anything about international law.

I think if you need a life experience degree, then Robert de Sorbon is the most legitimate and recognizable degree you can get compare to SRU, etc… because it is backed by the France VAE law. Would you agree?

[Robert J.]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

Belarus and Kyrghyz Republic have the date for Ratification & Entry into force, but no signature date. Strange. It tells me that I do not know anything about international law.

I think if you need a life experience degree, then Robert de Sorbon is the most legitimate and recognizable degree you can get compare to SRU, etc… because it is backed by the France VAE law. Would you agree?

I think people want to believe that, yes. Whether or not that indeed is the case is still undertermined. At face value it appears to be a legal process in France, whether or not it's executed as stated or has any acceptance anywhere is still yet to be determined, I would very much like to see a statement from the French Ministry of Education or a public University in France also say what Alain said.."Yes it's the law, we must accept it.". That would be a bombshell indeed.

Right now I believe "Life Experience" schools have had a 100.00% loser rate, so history isn't on their side.

[sorbon]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

Thanks oxpecker for posting this link, I might put that on the "Links" page permanently.

My question is to Alain:

It appears the United States signed the treaty but has not ratified it and has no "force into effect" date. I'm not an expert on international law, but it would appear to me under the Lisbon Convention there's some argument for acceptance for the countries that have signed and ratified, but the United States is not one of them.

Can you provide us with an explanation why my interpretation is not valid?

Thank you,


Frankly some country like Belgium did not ratified it but enforce it automatically. I do not well enough the US constitutional Law does this convention (not treaty) has to be ratified or not by the US senate? I DO NOT KNOW but I will come back after research.

Regards .

[Robert J.]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

Thanks oxpecker for posting this link, I might put that on the "Links" page permanently.

My question is to Alain:

It appears the United States signed the treaty but has not ratified it and has no "force into effect" date. I'm not an expert on international law, but it would appear to me under the Lisbon Convention there's some argument for acceptance for the countries that have signed and ratified, but the United States is not one of them.

Can you provide us with an explanation why my interpretation is not valid?

Thank you,


Frankly some country like Belgium did not ratified it but enforce it automatically. I do not well enough the US constitutional Law does this convention (not treaty) has to be ratified or not by the US senate? I DO NOT KNOW but I will come back after research.

Regards .

Thank you.

[sorbon]

To see text of Lisbon Convention, and list of those who have signed, ratified, etc. see http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/Commun/QueVoulezVous.asp?NT=165&CL=ENG

Thanks oxpecker for posting this link, I might put that on the "Links" page permanently.

My question is to Alain:

It appears the United States signed the treaty but has not ratified it and has no "force into effect" date. I'm not an expert on international law, but it would appear to me under the Lisbon Convention there's some argument for acceptance for the countries that have signed and ratified, but the United States is not one of them.

Can you provide us with an explanation why my interpretation is not valid?

Thank you,


Frankly some country like Belgium did not ratified it but enforce it automatically. I do not well enough the US constitutional Law does this convention (not treaty) has to be ratified or not by the US senate? I DO NOT KNOW but I will come back after research.

Regards .

Thank you.

I phone to the US State Dept. It is not ratified and not enforcable yet
regards

[sorbon]

We checked. The Lisbon treaty is not unforceable yet as the US Senate did not ratify it oer even look at it (Why signing it then???) but another treaty applies


32001D0196
2001/196/EC: Council Decision of 26 February 2001 concerning the conclusion of an Agreement between the European Community and the United States of America renewing a programme of cooperation in higher education and vocational education and training
Official Journal L 071 , 13/03/2001 P. 0007 - 0007

Regards

[Robert J.]

We checked. The Lisbon treaty is not unforceable yet as the US Senate did not ratify it oer even look at it (Why signing it then???) but another treaty applies


32001D0196
2001/196/EC: Council Decision of 26 February 2001 concerning the conclusion of an Agreement between the European Community and the United States of America renewing a programme of cooperation in higher education and vocational education and training
Official Journal L 071 , 13/03/2001 P. 0007 - 0007

Regards

Alain thank you for calling the US State Dept and being honest about the US Senate has not ratifying it and therefore the USA is not officially enforcing the Lisbon Convention.

Can you please elaborate more on this new find however?

Thank you,

[oxpecker]

Belarus and Kyrghyz Republic have the date for Ratification & Entry into force, but no signature date. Strange. It tells me that I do not know anything about international law.
These countries were not signatories to the original treaty, but acceded to the treaty later. See definition of "accession" in the Glossary at http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Glossary.htm

[oxpecker]

Incidentally, the U.S. signs many treaties without any real intention of ratifying them. There will be no move by the State Dept. to bring these to Congress for ratification. Another example is the Cartagena Protocol (http://www.biodiv.org/biosafety/default.aspx).

The U.S. signs these treaties (even if it has no intention to ratify) because a country that signs a treaty can participate in the subsequent negotiations about the details of how the treaty will be implemented, enforced, etc. If you don't sign, you don't participate and hence are at a disadvantage in international affairs.

[Shoshana]

I have been able to verify with lawyers in France that UFRS it is truly legal and legimate in France. But this may be no more than legal just as any state licensed school in the US. The French Embassy said to use an agency such as auap to determine the equivlance.
An evaluator told me that the equivalence comes from the Anjuan accrediation. We do not hear about that any longer.

Kindly explain.

[James Grey]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

They'll take your money - I wonder whose bank account they now use???- and issue you witha degree without cntacting you to verfiy who you are.

VAE is NOT, I repeat NOT generally accepted in France.

So ...

FarQ

[mosbybranch]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

They'll take your money - I wonder whose bank account they now use???- and issue you witha degree without cntacting you to verfiy who you are.

VAE is NOT, I repeat NOT generally accepted in France.

So ...

FarQ

I went to both RA and DETC schools and both are DL. They did not contact me to verify who I am. In fact, I know someone who is studying the whole degree program for someone else.

Here are some of the schools in France implementing VAE:

1. http://www.univmulhouse.fr/web/formations/inscriptions/validation_acquis.jsp
2. http://www.univ-poitiers.fr/formation/vap.htm
3. http://www.univ-perp.fr/scms/scuio/service/Doc%20VAE/Dispositif%20de%20validation.htm

[mosbybranch]

I have been able to verify with lawyers in France that UFRS it is truly legal and legimate in France. But this may be no more than legal just as any state licensed school in the US. The French Embassy said to use an agency such as auap to determine the equivlance.
An evaluator told me that the equivalence comes from the Anjuan accrediation. We do not hear about that any longer.

Kindly explain.

I recall someone from the DegreeInformation DL forum was able to verify with a lawyer in France that UFRS is legal and legitimate. Your verification is another plus to this school.

In addition to my RA and DETC degrees, I also have 2 unaccredited degrees in the U.S. The whole movement of accreditation in the US is strong and I cannot seem to use these 2 unaccredited degrees especially when there are a lot of diploma mill stories in the news. And they seem to make a notion that unaccredited is a mill. Therefore, foreign schools that have an equivalent to any state licensed school in the US have more advantage. Some countries do not have accreditation. I prefer foreign (state license equivalent) schools.

[Shoshana]

VAE may not be widely accepted in France - I don't know. Perhaps yes and perhaps no. Just remember that traditional educators used to call NOVA University a degree mill.
UFRS following VAE, and being listed in the French Journal makes it legal, not accredited. The question I ask is about the accreditation, not the legality.
-Shoshana

[Robert J.]

VAE may not be widely accepted in France - I don't know. Perhaps yes and perhaps no. Just remember that traditional educators used to call NOVA University a degree mill.
UFRS following VAE, and being listed in the French Journal makes it legal, not accredited. The question I ask is about the accreditation, not the legality.
-Shoshana

That's a very good point Shoshana. I am convinced now the VAE is indeed a real concept in France. The links that mosbybranch provided do show French Universities at least talking about VAE. However I still can't grasp if a non Ministry of Education Private School can indeed to VAE evaluations and provide degrees and France must accept them. I realize it's the law, DETC and ACICS degrees are both accredited here in the US, perfectly legitimate, yet we know in practice that isn't so. I wonder if it's similar situation in France.

[Robert J.]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

They'll take your money - I wonder whose bank account they now use???- and issue you witha degree without cntacting you to verfiy who you are.

VAE is NOT, I repeat NOT generally accepted in France.

So ...

FarQ

I went to both RA and DETC schools and both are DL. They did not contact me to verify who I am. In fact, I know someone who is studying the whole degree program for someone else.

Here are some of the schools in France implementing VAE:

1. http://www.univmulhouse.fr/web/formations/inscriptions/validation_acquis.jsp
2. http://www.univ-poitiers.fr/formation/vap.htm
3. http://www.univ-perp.fr/scms/scuio/service/Doc%20VAE/Dispositif%20de%20validation.htm

I couldn't get the first link to work.

Can anyone translate those pages?

[Robert J.]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

They'll take your money - I wonder whose bank account they now use???- and issue you witha degree without cntacting you to verfiy who you are.

VAE is NOT, I repeat NOT generally accepted in France.

So ...

FarQ

I went to both RA and DETC schools and both are DL. They did not contact me to verify who I am. In fact, I know someone who is studying the whole degree program for someone else.

Here are some of the schools in France implementing VAE:

1. http://www.univmulhouse.fr/web/formations/inscriptions/validation_acquis.jsp
2. http://www.univ-poitiers.fr/formation/vap.htm
3. http://www.univ-perp.fr/scms/scuio/service/Doc%20VAE/Dispositif%20de%20validation.htm

I couldn't get the first link to work.

Can anyone translate those pages?

I friend of mine from Geneva is translating this page for me
http://www.univ-perp.fr/scms/scuio/service/Doc%20VAE/Dispositif%20de%20validation.htm

He had heard of VAE already.

I'll let you know what he says...

Edit: (He's a Professional Corporate Translator, not an education guy so he should be pretty objective.)

[mosbybranch]

What is there to accredit or evaluate the school that does only VAE? To see the school is financially stable? It's not a classroom or DL course study. The laws have placed procedures for this and that’s it. The “accreditation” procedure can be read here at the bottom (box 2): http://www.sorbonedu.com/unesco.pdf

Full text here: http://www.unesco.org/iiep/eng/research/highered/lifelrn/france.pdf

[Robert J.]

I am on Instant messenger with him now and will post the conversation shortly.

[Robert J.]

I am on Instant messenger with him now and will post the conversation shortly.

We're in conversation pause, while waiting I did verify UNIVERSITE de PERPIGNAN is an officially accredited institution in France which they have a VAE procedure.

http://www.unesco.org/iau/world-universities/df-nw.html#France

[Robert J.]

ok here is the message log of myself and my friend, who's from Geneva Switzerland and speaks French, English, and German. He works as a Corporate translator translating manuals. I never mentioned the school we are discussing here and this only refers to UNIVERSITE de PERGNAN's website, a French Ministry Accredited school. The log is complete with the exception I found and replaced our MSN ID's. Interesting note that It does not seem to allow a doctoral equivalent and also it appears under Article 4 you must be a resident of the EU.

---------------------------------------------
Translator:
by the way, i also found a translation of the page that isn't bad
Moderator:
really kewl
Translator:
you have the url already, if you go to google, on the right hand side there is a link for language tools, on that page you can paste the url and it will translate about 95% of the page for you
Moderator:
yeah we were hoping to avoid that
Moderator:
for example:
Moderator:
VAE modifies the legal framework of the validation of the assets
Moderator:
"assets"
Moderator:
it's not human
Translator:
no, but it does give you the basic points and req's for the certifications
Moderator:
another example
Moderator:
for the acquisition of a diploma, a title with professional purpose or a certificate of qualification
Moderator:
does diploma mean degree ?
Translator:
yes
Moderator:
how do I know that? A robot translated
Translator:
robot doesn't give you all of the nuances, but it does give a general idea, this does look interesting though, I am actually reading the french version
Moderator:
as we understand it, it's 3yrs per 1 yr of studies, therefore working for 6yrs and you have a bachelor's you can get equated as having a Master's degree
Translator:
essentially, yes
Moderator:
and does this school actually give out their own degrees? or is it something different
Moderator:
what about the rigor of verifying
Moderator:
and I see the word "vocational" is that more bad robot translation? "Vocational" here means more like blue collar skilled labor
Translator:
there is quite a bit of documentation required for submission, it will then go before a council who will be responsible for verification and ultimately the decision
Translator:
vocational means career or job related
Translator:
in the rest of the world, a vocation is a profession, whether it be manual labour or management
Translator:
the title (degree as such) would not be given in the name of a particular institution, but from the state itself
Moderator:
that's interesting
Moderator:
so they are more like middlemen?
Translator:
kinda, they are governed by the state as well, but they basically allow you to substitute valid work experience for class time
Moderator:
up to what degree level?
Translator:
it depends on the field, but it looks like the max level attainable (in your interest) would be a masters degree
Moderator:
it's not for me
Moderator:
but for the general public information
Moderator:
what is the highest achievable for any discipline
Translator:
breakdown - you cannot use it to get a GED (like) qualification, no general diploma can be earned, nor can any school specific diploma be earned
Translator:
the requirements state that you must have at least 3 years of experience in the related field, this must be documented and signed off, or attested to by the company or sponsor (charity etc)
Moderator:
do you have to have sponsor?
Translator:
you can only apply once a year for consideration
Moderator:
or can someone "walkin"
Moderator:
can you get a Doctoral equivalent?
Translator:
not a sponsor sponsor, but if you did charitable work and are trying to use that as part of your experience, the charity (sponsor) must verify that you did what you say you did
Translator:
that's what i meant by sponsor, this appears to be open to walk ins
Translator:
250 euros if you are an individual, and 1000 euros if you are a company
Moderator:
cheap
Translator:
ok - a little more careful reading shows this... the degree can be issued by the university or the state
Moderator:
hehe
Moderator:
can you get a Doctoral equivalent?
Translator:
i do not see any mention of a doctoral equivalent
Moderator:
but a Master's yes?
Translator:
masters can be done, i do not know what the DEA or DESS credentials are, but they may also be a doctoral equiv degree...
Moderator:
is there any reference about it being a qualification for for higher education?
Moderator:
e.g. I get a Bachelor's and Master's via VAE, and can I get accepted into a Doctoral Program?
Translator:
ok - the DEA degree is a post graduate degree, but it is a pre req for a doctoral degree in france
Translator:
a DESS is a Professional Degree at the Master's level
Moderator:
ok so not a doctoral equivalent
Translator:
Already equipped with a professional degree from your home country, you want to pursue specialized professional training for a year in a specific area. The Diplôme d'Etudes Supérieures Spécalisées (DESS) - a professional degree at the Master's-level - is a very competitive programme which offers an opportunity for high-level training in information management, marketing, urban and regional plannin
Translator:human resource management, or international finance. (For students seeking an international career in journalism or public affairs, certain fields offering the Diplôme d'Etudes Approfondies (DEA) would be appropriate. All of the areas offering this research-based training are listed with the doctoral fields.)

Moderator:
is that a general description or is that on the page?
Translator:
different school
Moderator:
sounds not- doctoral equivalent, we can put that to bed
Translator:
but once i knew what the acronym stood for
Moderator:
does it say anything of acceptance into higher ed programs with a VAE degree?
Translator:
they are specialised Master's degree programmes, which you actually need to get in completion of a Doctorate in France
Moderator:
you still looking?
Translator:
i don't see anything in here about acceptance of degrees for other programs
Moderator:
ok how about this
Moderator:
does this person have to French?
Moderator:
or can this school equate someone from the USA
Translator:
sorry - i am on the phone
Moderator:
np
Translator:
this is only available to residents, (not required to be a citizen) of the EU
Moderator:
huh
Moderator:
so anyone of the EU, is that the school's rule or a VAE rule?
Translator:
You can attempt to submit your credentials from a foreign school, but you must show proof of
Translator:
that is in article 4 of the statute itself
Translator:
because the degree may be issued by the state, or the university, you still have the residency requirements to qualify
Translator:
you may be able to satisfy this requirement simply by being admitted to the university itself, which would then give you a student visa
Translator:
apart from the supporting documentation, not really, you pay them to review it, if you don't qualify, you have to wait another year before trying again, but you also have to pay for it again
Translator:
it does not state whther or not you have any university fees to pay as well though
Moderator:
ok thanks for your time, this has been very helpful
Translator:
hope it helps

[Robert J.]

It appears from a USA Perspective:

1. VAE is a valid Process in France and we have examples of real French Accredited Institutions applying it.

2. VAE under Article 4 requires the "student" to be a resident of the EU.

3. The USA did not Ratify the Lisbon Convention and any argument about the USA being obligated to accepting a VAE degree, or any degree under Lisbon is not valid. As verified by the US State Dept.

4. VAE does not allow for Doctoral Equivalents and seems to go up to the Post Graduate Diploma and Master's Level.

5. VAE in Europe however, Because of Lisbon and French Accredited Institutions applying it, appears to be valid.

I found this thread very constructive and answered many of my questions.

[Dennis Ruhl]

Great work

Hope it's a sign of things to come. Constructive work - not destructive opinion.

[mosbybranch]

Are you referring to Article 4 from Décret n° 2002-590 du 24 avril 2002? This decree (VAE) mentions nothing about EU and residents of EU. Maybe your friend (translator) is reading a policy from that particular institution which may be "extra," "additional," "add-on," to the decree.

[Robert J.]

Are you referring to Article 4 from Décret n° 2002-590 du 24 avril 2002? This decree (VAE) mentions nothing about EU and residents of EU. Maybe your friend (translator) is reading a policy from that particular institution which may be "extra," "additional," "add-on," to the decree.

I'm not sure what he meant, he may have read the Bullet Item wrong, I can't talk with him again until next Wednesday.

The last line on the page says:

Les candidats non-ressortissants de l'Union Européenne, doivent fournir la copie de leur titre de séjour.

Which Translates:
The candidates not-nationals of the European Union, must provide the copy of their residence permit.

At the very least it's a requirement for this school we reviewed.

[J]

Are you referring to Article 4 from Décret n° 2002-590 du 24 avril 2002? This decree (VAE) mentions nothing about EU and residents of EU. Maybe your friend (translator) is reading a policy from that particular institution which may be "extra," "additional," "add-on," to the decree.

It's worth remembering that France is very much an egalitarian, moderate socialist society. Discrimination against particular nationalities is strictly outlawed, and this applies just as much in education as elsewhere. It is as possible for US citizens to study in France as it is for them to study in Spain or Germany or the rest of the EU (otherwise there wouldn't be so many MBAs from INSEAD mastering the universe over there).

[Robert J.]

Which school name will be on the diploma? Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon or Ecole Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon ??
Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon

Alain, thank you for being forthright in your responses, in particular the State Dept. and Lisbon. Upon looking back in this thread I saw this reply above. Can you explain the differences in names and Univeristies? Are they now merged? Did Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon replace Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon ? What are the effects of the Anjoun accreditation now with Supérieure Robert de Sorbon ? It is now insignificant? What are your thoughts here?

Thank you,

[mosbybranch]

It appears from a USA Perspective:

1. VAE is a valid Process in France and we have examples of real French Accredited Institutions applying it.

2. VAE under Article 4 requires the "student" to be a resident of the EU.

3. The USA did not Ratify the Lisbon Convention and any argument about the USA being obligated to accepting a VAE degree, or any degree under Lisbon is not valid. As verified by the US State Dept.

4. VAE does not allow for Doctoral Equivalents and seems to go up to the Post Graduate Diploma and Master's Level.

5. VAE in Europe however, Because of Lisbon and French Accredited Institutions applying it, appears to be valid.

I found this thread very constructive and answered many of my questions.

UFDRS checks the credentials of the English-speaking applicants on behalf of ESRDS.

I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that the VAE law does not specifically state that student must be a resident of the EU/France. And it does not specifically state the degree level, but only “diplôme.” I would not conclude that VAE does not allow Doctoral degree. This seems to be an individual institution’s policy. The VAE law is open to individual institution interpretation and creates its own policy according to its mission, goal, and belief. Again, I could be wrong.

[sorbon]

I am always the skeptic but Alain is sounding more believable. I like the French alternative better than the pretend? country in the Indian Ocean. Despite to opinions to the contrary, France is a real modern country that actually has a post-secondary education system. The rock (forget the name) in the Indian Ocean has none.

They'll take your money - I wonder whose bank account they now use???- and issue you witha degree without cntacting you to verfiy who you are.

VAE is NOT, I repeat NOT generally accepted in France.

So ...

FarQ
Sorry you are wrong totally wrong .

it is not only the Law but totally applied by all universities [/b]
As a proof go see the CNAM a prestigiousd government institution: The titled is How to become an Engineer with the VAE
http://yinkh.free.fr/Ecole/

PTryust me on that i am French... (nobody is perfec)t :P

[sorbon]

It appears from a USA Perspective:

1. VAE is a valid Process in France and we have examples of real French Accredited Institutions applying it.

2. VAE under Article 4 requires the "student" to be a resident of the EU.

3. The USA did not Ratify the Lisbon Convention and any argument about the USA being obligated to accepting a VAE degree, or any degree under Lisbon is not valid. As verified by the US State Dept.

4. VAE does not allow for Doctoral Equivalents and seems to go up to the Post Graduate Diploma and Master's Level.

5. VAE in Europe however, Because of Lisbon and French Accredited Institutions applying it, appears to be valid.

I found this thread very constructive and answered many of my questions.

UFDRS checks the credentials of the English-speaking applicants on behalf of ESRDS.

I may be wrong on this but my understanding is that the VAE law does not specifically state that student must be a resident of the EU/France. And it does not specifically state the degree level, but only “diplôme.” I would not conclude that VAE does not allow Doctoral degree. This seems to be an individual institution’s policy. The VAE law is open to individual institution interpretation and creates its own policy according to its mission, goal, and belief. Again, I could be wrong.

Answer from the "french Horse" mouth:

1) You are right every universities does itt and is by Law obliged to accept the degree issue through VAE .

2) Totally wrong sorry, France treats all foreign students (including many French speaking Africans) the same way. The Lisbon treaty does not mention the nationalirty of the student but the nationalitty ogf the country.

3) You are right for the Lisbon convention I checked it and put it on the foruim but it signed another convention that applies with the European Community.

4) Wrong sorry, where do you get that? It is by Law "Possible" for all degrees including Doctorat

5) You are absolutely right

I Hope you are nmot offended..

[sorbon]

What is there to accredit or evaluate the school that does only VAE? To see the school is financially stable? It's not a classroom or DL course study. The laws have placed procedures for this and that’s it. The “accreditation” procedure can be read here at the bottom (box 2): http://www.sorbonedu.com/unesco.pdf

Full text here: http://www.unesco.org/iiep/eng/research/highered/lifelrn/france.pdf


Some news

A) Robert de Sorbon does regular courses and have a roster of 14 PhD holders for the moment and is authorized to bestow degrees.

B) For the money we are very happy to receive the "huge contribution" LOL of $60 Refundable + $ 600. (in fact the price are in Euros and in ligne with public universities) By the way we are non profit and [b]exempted of VAT by the French Government as "Institution of Higher education". (Means something no?)

To pay us, as asked, by an angry new member :

1) Paypal account for Credit Card: Robert de Sorbon
2) Banque Société Générale de la Vienne France
3) Western Union to Montmorillon France

C) Also for an extra €100 the diploma could received an "Apostille" from the French authorities. You do not know what is Apostille ? (I didn't before), please go to http://www.state.gov/m/a/auth/c1267.htm

d) To reply to the person who wrongly says "VAE is NOT, I repeat NOT generally accepted in France."

"La VAE est un droit pour chacun" VAE is a right for everybody is on the site of a French Public University http://dnf.cnam.fr/viatic/

TheVAE is not only accepted in France but it is the Law and in France like in Australia, we apply the Law.

You may not like it but it VAE accepted as it should be. Your position is like saying "TO STOP AT RED LIGHTS IS NOT I REPEAT NOT ACCEPTED IN THE USA" :oops:

I think that after those messages I can do a course on French education Law in France. By the way I must confess I am already doing it on VAE at Robert de Sorbon !!!

Please note our additional domains
www.sorbon.fr
&
www.sorbon-uni.fr



:roll:
Thank you for your patience

[Fixed typo and removed fixed post by Author] - Admin

[mosbybranch]

Hi Alain,

With all the discussion about accreditation, I would like to get the facts straight. How does the French government view accreditation? And does the French have accreditation for higher education? Is your school eligible to seek for accreditation from your government?

[sorbon]

Hi Alain,

With all the discussion about accreditation, I would like to get the facts straight. How does the French government view accreditation? And does the French have accreditation for higher education? Is your school eligible to seek for accreditation from your government?.

Hi thank you !

French Government does not "accredit" anymore since 2000.

It "authorise"s Institution of Higher Education, which is slightly different.

We are authorized, registered and published at the Journal Officiel as so.

Thank you,

[mosbybranch]

I think Alian has clarified all the issues regarding accreditation, recognition, legality, and acceptance for Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon:

Accreditation: The French government does not do accreditation since 2000 due to the new law “Abrogé par Ordonnance 2000-549 2000-06-15 art. 7 JORF 22 juin 2000”

Legality: The said school is a French registered Institution of Higher education (L731-1) authorized to bestow diplomas (L731-14). Listed in the Journal Officiel de la République Française 20040039-1669.

Recognition: The school decides to do “only” VAE. This VAE is established through the Law of 17 Janvier 2002 et its "décret d’application" du 24 avril 2002 and is part of the code de l'Education de la République Française L 355-1

Acceptance: French State Universities are now implementing VAE. Art L 355 I states that a VAE procedure is equivalent to any "regular" procedure.

[Robert J.]

Which school name will be on the diploma? Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon or Ecole Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon ??
Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon

Alain, thank you for being forthright in your responses, in particular the State Dept. and Lisbon. Upon looking back in this thread I saw this reply above. Can you explain the differences in names and Univeristies? Are they now merged? Did Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon replace Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon ? What are the effects of the Anjoun accreditation now with Supérieure Robert de Sorbon ? It is now insignificant? What are your thoughts here?

Thank you,

Alain, I still have this question(s) unanswered. If you can clarify...

Thank you,

[sorbon]

Which school name will be on the diploma? Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon or Ecole Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon ??
Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon

Alain, thank you for being forthright in your responses, in particular the State Dept. and Lisbon. Upon looking back in this thread I saw this reply above. Can you explain the differences in names and Univeristies? Are they now merged? Did Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon replace Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon ? What are the effects of the Anjoun accreditation now with Supérieure Robert de Sorbon ? It is now insignificant? What are your thoughts here?

Thank you,

Alain, I still have this question(s) unanswered. If you can clarify...

Thank you,

As explained the Université is foreign based and is accredited by Anjouan Union des Comores. Degrees from this university, if needed, are validated by the French Ecole Supérieure which is an authorized french institution of higher education according to L613-3.
Regards

[Shoshana]

Alaine - I am not questioning the accreditation of UFRS.

However I simply do not understand what you wrote:

As explained the Université is foreign based and is accredited by Anjouan Union des Comores. Degrees from this university, if needed, are validated by the French Ecole Supérieure which is an authorized french institution of higher education according to L613-3.

If the University is accredited by Anjouan Union des Comores what does the "Validation by the French Ecole Supérieure" add? When is it "needed" and when is it not needed?

Thank you,
Shoshana

[sorbon]

Alaine - I am not questioning the accreditation of UFRS.

However I simply do not understand what you wrote:

As explained the Université is foreign based and is accredited by Anjouan Union des Comores. Degrees from this university, if needed, are validated by the French Ecole Supérieure which is an authorized french institution of higher education according to L613-3.

If the University is accredited by Anjouan Union des Comores what does the "Validation by the French Ecole Supérieure" add? When is it "needed" and when is it not needed?

Thank you,
Shoshana
]
They are two two campuses :

The French Institution called "Ecole Supérieure", which is fully operational recognized in France.

The Université is accredited by Union des Comores.

The Ecole if needed, may validate for French of European Community purpose (Cf lisbon convention) , the diploma of the"University" according to an article of the code.

Regards

[Redlyne Racer]

They are two two campuses : ...



Did you mean "tutu" campuses? Oui oui.

Here's a suggested course of action regarding French universities and VAE:

1. Find out how the German universities do it.
2. Wait for the French universities to surrender.

[sorbon]

They are two two campuses : ...



Did you mean "tutu" campuses? Oui oui.

Here's a suggested course of action regarding French universities and VAE:

1. Find out how the German universities do it.
2. Wait for the French universities to surrender.

I do not understand "tutu". If it is a ballet outfit, look at the pictures of the french campus, there is no student wearing tutu...

The "Surrender to German reference" is very unappropriate in this forum

It is like mentioning the Vietnam war for an American in this forum on Education. It hurts and has nothing to do with it....Please remember Lafayette, Montesquieu (l'esprit des lois) not Chirac.

WERE WE SUPPOSED, IN THIS FORUM, TO BE INTELLECTUALS NO?

The VAE is official and accepted (more than 700 pages in Goggle many from Public universities) not only in France but alsoin Germany and in all Europe as per the Lisbon Convention, Which means that we did not surrender...yet... :twisted:

[Robert J.]

Let's keep this on topic please:

The dicussion is about the VAE procedure at Sorbon.

If it just turns into insults or silly posts I'll just close the thread.

Alain:

I do not think you made it clear as to the true reason UFRS and Ecole exists still as separate institutions...There were several sub parts to my question you left unanswered. If you can review my last couple of posts and address them it would make me understand things better.

Thank you,

[sorbon]

There are two entities.
UFDRS and ESRDS (in France).

One is accredited by a Francophone Country uses the VAEand is not located in France.
The other one is a in France.
There are no other reasons other than one is an English speaking country the one is in a French speaking country.

There is a validation procedure for Foreign degree in France. If our student from UFDRS want a formal validation for French employement ESRDS is authorized to validate it. as per Article L613-3

(Loi nº 2002-73 du 17 janvier 2002 art. 137 Journal Officiel du 18 janvier 2002)

Toute personne peut également demander la validation des études supérieures qu'elle a accomplies, notamment à l'étranger

I have a more a very Important news

Because of the particularity of VAE, I asked the University of Florida if they accept degrees from French universities, if they are obtained tthrough the VAE procedure.

Here is their response:
Thank you for your email. Yes, you are eligible to apply to the
University of Florida Graduate Studies.

Sincerely
International Admissions

Regards

[John D]

I do not understand "tutu". If it is a ballet outfit, look at the pictures of the french campus, there is no student wearing tutu...

The "Surrender to German reference" is very unappropriate in this forum

It is like mentioning the Vietnam war for an American in this forum on Education. It hurts and has nothing to do with it....Please remember Lafayette, Montesquieu (l'esprit des lois) not Chirac.

WERE WE SUPPOSED, IN THIS FORUM, TO BE INTELLECTUALS NO?

Dear Alain,

Don't expect too much, the same people do the rounds of all discussion fora. They are professionals and they have nothing else to do with their time, so be prepared to encounter "tutus" everywhere you go and don't let them worry you.

However, this particular forum gave you the opportunity to provide more information than anywhere else about your fine school. It is also commendable that the administrator and others conducted their own research to verify facts.

I've personally suggested to a large number of interested people to visit and read the information you provide in this forum as well as the relevant research by the administrator.

John D

[J]

Alain, may I draw your attention to a second thread with some relevant questions?

http://www.degreeboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32

[mosbybranch]

Hi Alian,

I have a second looked at the Ecole Superieure’s registration, and I understand it is the declaration of the creation of an association which is similar to creating an incorporation in the U.S. In the US, forming incorporation has nothing to do with having “degree-granting” authority. I do not understand French law, so could you explain how your school has degree-granting authority. By having the Recepisse de Declaration de Creation as a teaching school, does it automatically give you degree-granting authority?

Also, being listed in the Journal Officiel is like having it listed in the Federal Register in the US which is an official announcement. And it has nothing to do with legality of your school to grant degree.

Do you have any document to show us that your school is a private higher institution of education?

Also, can you help me find the section of the VAE law that allows French Institutions of Higher Education (for private school)?

Thank you.

[sorbon]

Hi Alian,

I have a second looked at the Ecole Superieure’s registration, and I understand it is the declaration of the creation of an association which is similar to creating an incorporation in the U.S. In the US, forming incorporation has nothing to do with having “degree-granting” authority. I do not understand French law, so could you explain how your school has degree-granting authority. By having the Recepisse de Declaration de Creation as a teaching school, does it automatically give you degree-granting authority?

Also, being listed in the Journal Officiel is like having it listed in the Federal Register in the US which is an official announcement. And it has nothing to do with legality of your school to grant degree.

Do you have any document to show us that your school is a private higher institution of education?

Also, can you help me find the section of the VAE law that allows French Institutions of Higher Education (for private school)?

Thank you.
easy go to

http://81.255.68.60/REPERTOIRE/Interrogation/frame_interrogation.asp?ACTION=nouvelle&Niveau=sir en

Type our Number: 478817059
And you get the response.

The VAE is for all universities private. public and a third one which is Consulars ie school controled by the Chamber of Commerce and industrie.

Regards

[mosbybranch]

easy go to

http://81.255.68.60/REPERTOIRE/Interrogation/frame_interrogation.asp?ACTION=nouvelle&Niveau=sir en

Type our Number: 478817059
And you get the response.

The VAE is for all universities private. public and a third one which is Consulars ie school controled by the Chamber of Commerce and industrie.

Regards

The website response:

Raison sociale et Enseigne (Corporate name and Ensign): ECOLE SUPERIEURE ROBERT DE SORBON
Activité principale (Main activity): Higher education
Effectif (Enrollment): The firm is known in the repertoire as legally active

Thank you!

[milotach]

I made the inquires about this Ecole and they are legal registered, if this made happy or not to someone on USA is another question, in EU we have nothing to discuss about a sovereing nation like a France giving degrees according with their own laws. I can not see the problem. All about this univertiy is because they are coming inside of the USA market?. Should we have the same reactions if a most popular french public university will be doing the same?. The most problably answer will be NO. Any case France has a very good justice, till now there is no complain on the courts against them. Privated opinions are allways wellcome but in europe we have the law to resolve this kind of conflicts, and is absolutly more cheaper than USA. Please put in google ecole 1901 and you will see a big number of ecoles created in the same way that Robert de Sorbon.

[J]

One thing is for sure.

The French have extremely strict laws on teaching and granting degrees. They punish offenders with fines and jail terms. A French prison is not a pleasant place to be.

If Sorbon does not obey French law to the letter, it will find itself quickly in hot water. There is every incentive for it to do things properly.

[milotach]

One thing is for sure.

The French have extremely strict laws on teaching and granting degrees. They punish offenders with fines and jail terms. A French prison is not a pleasant place to be.

If Sorbon does not obey French law to the letter, it will find itself quickly in hot water. There is every incentive for it to do things properly.

I can not be more agree with you. This is the only true. the time and the law will show who is who.

[John D]

Hi Alain,

Could you please kindly answer the following questions for me?

* Are all degrees issued through the Universite Francophone Robert de Sorbon and verified, if necessary, by Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon? or

* Degrees are issued by both schools and it is only a matter of choice?

* Do you issue transcripts or you follow the tradition of some European universities that don't?

* If you do issue transcripts, how do you decide what subjects and grades to include?

* I have come across the Ecole referred to variously as either Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon or Ecole Superieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon. Which of the two is the correct full name of the Ecole?

* If an applicant needs to complete some additional work to qualify for a degree, do you offer any courses or individual instruction or supervision for writing a project, dissertation, or any other means of directly assisting the applicant, or the applicant is evaluated as non-qualified and his fees returned?

* If you do provide any of the above, can you give us an idea of what additional fees may be involved?

Thank you very much for your time.

John D

[mosbybranch]

Hi Alian,

Please update us on the lawsuit between Robert de Sorbon vs. ODA Oregon?

Thanks.

[John D]

Please update us on the lawsuit between Robert de Sorbon vs. ODA Oregon?

A lawsuit filed by Robert de Sorbon vs. ODA Oregon!!!

That's news to me. So the saga started by Kennedy Western continues. Let's see who will be next.

John D

[mosbybranch]

A lawsuit filed by Robert de Sorbon vs. ODA Oregon!!!

That's news to me. So the saga started by Kennedy Western continues. Let's see who will be next.

John D

Alan Contreras (from Degreeinfo), "... The Sorbon thing has sent the Oregon Department of Justice a threatening letter with which our attorneys were not impressed...."

So, I assume there is a lawsuit.

[John D]

Alan Contreras (from Degreeinfo), "... The Sorbon thing has sent the Oregon Department of Justice a threatening letter with which our attorneys were not impressed...."

The Oregon "thing" was not impressed by Kennedy-Western either until it was too late for them.

John D

[J]

As I understand it, the document in question is a sommation interpellative, which is the first stage of legal action in France.

It is there, rather than in Oregon, that any future proceedings will take place.

Of course, the result of the Kennedy-Western case may (if favourable to K-W) have a knock-on effect for other schools on the ODA list, but I am not clear exactly how foreign schools would be affected.

[Len]

Hi John,

Nice to join you guys on this forum.

From what I have seen and researched on Robert de Sorbon, they are a valid, legitimate and accredited institution with credentials beyond reproach. I have also been in contact with Alain on Robert de Sorbon.

Regards from a very hot and humid Dar es Salaam in Tanzania, Africa.

Len.

[mosbybranch]

For those want to see Robert de Sorbon listing in the Les Journaux Officels, here is how:

1. http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/accueil.php

There three fields you need to complete.
a. Type de l'annonce: Creation (declaration d’ association)
b. Région/département de l'association: 86 (Vienne)
c. Activité de l'association: enseignement
d. then click “Chercher”

My opinion has changed. I now consider Robert de Sorbon is equivalent to State-licensed/approved private institution of higher education and does not have national recognition.

[J]

The French have, on the one hand, state universities, and on the other, private universities. Neither can operate without state authorisation. The authorisation process is set out by law.

Once authorisation is granted, the institution is bound by a further comprehensive set of laws. France has what amounts to a universally-set curriculum for degrees and this cannot be deviated from without incurring heavy fines and jail penalties.

In terms of external approval, this means (in my interpretation) that an authorised French private school granting degrees operates within a legislative framework, and that framework is sufficient to ensure consumer protection and educational quality.

If anything the nationally set curriculum for degrees in France is a good deal more uniform than anything in the USA at present.

[michael]

For those want to see Robert de Sorbon listing in the Les Journaux Officels, here is how:

1. http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/accueil.php

There three fields you need to complete.
a. Type de l'annonce: Creation (declaration d’ association)
b. Région/département de l'association: 86 (Vienne)
c. Activité de l'association: enseignement
d. then click “Chercher”

My opinion has changed. I now consider Robert de Sorbon is equivalent to State-licensed/approved private institution of higher education and does not have national recognition.

I see no place on the aforementioned website to put in the information you are talking about. Though I have heard from others who have contacted the French Ministry of Education that the UFRS doesn't exist.

[mosbybranch]

I see no place on the aforementioned website to put in the information you are talking about. Though I have heard from others who have contacted the French Ministry of Education that the UFRS doesn't exist.

L'Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon is not a French institution. But Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon does exist in France. http://www.civilairpatrol.biz/SorbonsApprovalToGrantDegrees

They probably wrote to the French authority inquiring Université Francophone instead of Ecole Supérieure.

[Bill Dayson]

For those want to see Robert de Sorbon listing in the Les Journaux Officels, here is how

Could somebody explain what the "Journaux Officels" is/are?

What is a listing here telling me, exactly? In particular, what does a listing for a school tell me about the legal and academic status (not the same thing) of the institution?

My impression from half the world away is that this is essentially a business license. Is that accurate?

[ray1212]

:lol:

Mr. Bill Dayson,

It is mighty nice seeing you posting on this website, considering many of your associates on DegreeInfo.Com got me ejected from that website for expressing my opinions regarding the Robert de Sorbon University. I mentioned it there and I will state it here, everything appears to be legit. It is my website link in which the document is posted proving their existence.

http://www.civilairpatrol.biz/SorbonsApprovalToGrantDegrees

Everyone on DegreeInfo.Com has persistently bashed everyone associated with the university, including Dr. J Prade, a professional of an evaluation service for foreign credentials that has existed for ten years.

http://www.auap.com/eval.html

Other people who also post on that website continue to run down Alain Michal and other individuals that fail to agree with them. How narrow minded!

I would like to ask people to review the posts on that site:






I hope people will sincerely look at Sorbon as a viable source for acceptance regarding academic credentials. I am tired of trying to convince many of your associates on that board who don't want to hear anything else.

I would like to encourage everyone to look at the VAE process, and I highly recommend anyone wishing to validate their experience for a degree to consider Robert de Sorbon University. I can be reached at the following email address if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

Reverend Robert Hill
Ordained Minister
Robert@CivilAirPatrol.biz
http://www.CivilAirPatrol.biz/Resume.pdf

Moderator Edit: We are not here to discuss the merits of other boards. Please do not post links to them.

[dhfr]

Please stick to discussing Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon/Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon rather than degreeinfo.

Thanks!

[ray1212]

Dear dhfr,

I apologize for referring to that website. I won't mention or quote from that URL again.

What I will focus on is the fact I believe in Robert de Sorbon University. I believe the French have established a valuable way to validate expriential learning. And Sorbon is leading the way. That is what's wrong with American Edication. Just because you have gained many years of experience in a particular area of expertise, you are considered somewhat inferior for not having a degree behind your name. And if you obtain one by the VAE process, the university examining that training is considered to be a diploma mill.

Thanks for the opportunity to contribute to this topic. I hope the truth continues to spread here. Again, I am sorry if I offended you. I enjoy this board.

Best Wishes and Have a Great Weekend!

Sincerely,

Reverend Robert Hill
Ordained Minister
Robert@CivilAirPatrol.biz
http://www.CivilAirPatrol.biz/Resume.pdf

[mosbybranch]

For those want to see Robert de Sorbon listing in the Les Journaux Officels, here is how

Could somebody explain what the "Journaux Officels" is/are?

What is a listing here telling me, exactly? In particular, what does a listing for a school tell me about the legal and academic status (not the same thing) of the institution?

My impression from half the world away is that this is essentially a business license. Is that accurate?


The “journaux Officels” is like the US Federal Register. It’s a place where official announcements from the government. If you look carefully at Robert de Sorbon in the Journaux, it says “Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur” which means Establishment of Higher Institution. This automatically gives Robert de Sorbon degree-granting authority as a private institution but not at national level. Other business are in the Journaux as well, but they are not listed as Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur. Naysayers can twist Robert de Sorbon as having a business license, but it’s a license to grant degree.

[ray1212]

I have been research the French law as I understand it according to the document I have it posted on my website, which is under construction.

http://www.civilairpatrol.biz/SorbonsApprovalToGrantDegrees

Now I don't speak French, but I do "Google" and I believe I have traced the origin of the document and can explain it as I understand. First please let me give you a link to go to that pertains to Journaux Officiels. The document is in French and I have attached immediately below it the translation accorc=ding to Google.

http://portail.droit.francophonie.org/categories.epl?categorie=16&etat_clef=&tri=&offset =&limite=

http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient-menuext&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fportail%2Edroit%2Efra ncophonie%2Eorg%2Fcategories%2Eepl%3Fcategorie%3D1 6%26etat%5Fclef%3D%26tri%3D%26offset%3D%26limite%3 D

Now if you will direct your reading down to:

Official Journals
http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/

The Official Journals are tools placed at the disposal of the French to give them access to the laws and payments which govern their everyday life. One finds there the legislative and lawful texts published in the Official Journal in version paper.
Language: French
State/zone: France
Category: Legislation - Official Journals

Now by click on the page at http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr and it will direct you to http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/accueil.php. About half way down the page, click on the web link:

Les annonces publiées au JO Associations
consulter les annonces

This will open up another web page that will require you to enter some specifics on the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon:

As follows:

Denominationation de l'association: "Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon"
Type del'announce: scroll down to: "Creation (declaration d'association)"
Region/departement de l"association: "scroll down to: "86 - Vienne"
Lieu de declaration: scroll down to: "Montmorillon"
Activite de l'association: scroll down to: "Enseignement"

After entering the above information, please click on link titled "Chercher" and that will take you to the page that identifies the
document/license/government authorization in question, Specifically Sorbon!

As the link http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/ states, "The Official Journals are tools placed at the disposal of the French to give them access to the laws and payments which govern their everyday life." This is a reference to a French Law, and it refers to the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon, as I know it to be the Robert de Sorbon University.

After following this lengthy set of instructions, I can only conclude that the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is a legal entity set up in accordance with French Law and that license, authorizes them to operate in France.

Now from what "J", a Degreeboard Moderator posted on Monday October 11, 2004 at 6:50AM and I quote, "One thing is for sure. The French have extremely strict laws on teaching and granting degrees. They punish offenders with fines and jail terms. A French prison is not a pleasant place to be. If Ssorbon does not obey French law to the letter, it will find itself quickly in hot water. There is every incentive for it to do things properly."

My conclusion from this discourse is Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is operating legally in France and is authorized to grant degrees.

[Bill Dayson]

The “journaux Officels” is like the US Federal Register. It’s a place where official announcements from the government.

It kind of looks to me like the publications that new business enterprises officially make here in the States, announcing their business names and providing required information on themselves.

But the implication seems to be that this French thing is something much more profound than that, that it somehow proves RdS's academic legitimacy.

I would like more details on that.

If you look carefully at Robert de Sorbon in the Journaux, it says “Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur” which means Establishment of Higher Institution. This automatically gives Robert de Sorbon degree-granting authority as a private institution but not at national level.

I don't understand that distinction. What do the words "private" and "national" mean in France? I get the distinct impression that these words have different connotations in France than they have here in the United States.

Are the degrees that "private" institutions grant different in some way from degrees granted by "national" institutions? Are "private" regulations regulated in any way by French educational law? Are they subject to any kind of external academic quality assurance process?

I mean, the University of Southern California is a private university. But its degrees have the same status and recognition as degrees from UCLA, a state institution, or the Naval Postgraduate School, a national one. Would that be true in France?

USC undergoes an identical academic quality assurance process, conducted by the same trusted outside parties, that UCLA and the NPS undergo. Do private higher education institutions in France undergo anything remotely similar?

Other business are in the Journaux as well, but they are not listed as Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur.

Are you suggesting that all it takes to grant academic degrees in France is a business license listing one's company as a 'higher education institution'?

Or are you suggesting that the use of these words means that some kind of rigorous academic standards have been successfully met?

Naysayers can twist Robert de Sorbon as having a business license, but it’s a license to grant degree.

I suppose that I'm still a 'naysayer' then.

Too much is riding on the mere use of the words "Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur" in a context where meaning and significance remain opaque.

Ultimately, I just want some persuasive reason to believe that RdS is an academically credible higher education institution.

[J]

I think Bill makes some important points here.

The first thing to make clear is that France has a national curriculum for degrees. What that means is that the requirements for each degree are laid down by law. Every "maitrise" or "license" or whatever has the same essential requirements.

In the US, we are used to seeing institutions determine their own curriculums according to their own beliefs, and the demands of whoever accredits them if they are accredited. But the French system is actually much, much more rigid than this. The law says what a given degree is and except in minor details it cannot be varied. You can't say that (by analogy) you will grant an MBA with only three courses rather than the ten set out by the given law, without breaking the law.

If you do deviate from the law and commit the criminal offence of "irregular teaching" - yes, there is such an offence in France - you face heavy fines and even jail for the owners and administrators of the school.

So what we have got is almost a reversal of the US system. In the US, the system works so that the accreditors say "do this and then you will obtain accreditation". France, on the other hand, says "you can set up a school easily, but unless you grant degrees via the requirements of the law you will end up facing criminal charges."

There are both state and private schools in France. All are restricted to the same curriculum for degrees. Private schools are explicitly (L731) allowed to grant degrees but cannot grant the titles of baccalaureate, license or doctorat - those are restricted to the state universities.

L731 also sets out in detail the requirements for facilities and for the qualifications and number of faculty members for private schools.

So should we regard a degree granted by a private French school as the equivalent of a state degree? Since the curriculum for both is the same by law, and the state regulates the granting of degrees strongly as explained above, there would appear to be a reasonable case in favour of this. If VAE is done it must be done according to the universal French law for all institutions. It cannot be varied in any way without breaking the law.

I said earlier that by choosing France, Sorbon was setting itself up against a tough regulatory environment. The French approach is to make it easy for a private school to set up, but after that almost everything it does is directly controlled by nationally-set law. This is the outcome of a socialist state; the concept of academic freedom that the US has promoted strongly is much less in evidence through the French system.

[J]

What I will focus on is the fact I believe in Robert de Sorbon University. I believe the French have established a valuable way to validate expriential learning. And Sorbon is leading the way. That is what's wrong with American Edication. Just because you have gained many years of experience in a particular area of expertise, you are considered somewhat inferior for not having a degree behind your name. And if you obtain one by the VAE process, the university examining that training is considered to be a diploma mill.

One thing that is clear is that there is strong demand, both within and beyond the US, for programs beyond the bachelor's level that give credit for experience gained outside the classroom up to a potential 100% of degree credit. To many, this seems a logical extension of the non-traditional principle that we see in action at the "big 3" RA schools that allow the earning of a bachelor's degree entirely by portfolio credit and testing out.

It is because such programs do not currently exist in the US accredited sector that providers outside the sector are filling the gap.

Above the bachelor's level, there is still a tremendous reliance on process rather than outcome in RA schools. Myself, I am on the side of outcome in this issue.

What would be fantastic would be to see a major RA DL school introduce a program leading to masters and doctorate degrees with potentially unlimited experiential credit opportunities, and then see who is worthy of stepping up to the plate and earning such an award. For those who have, for example, done research in an industrial setting, or published leading texts in their field, this might offer a valuable form of academic recognition for their achievement, wherever and whenever it was actualized.

[ray1212]

Dear J,

Thank you for your most recent comments regarding Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon. Finally someone gets my point, and I really appreciate you making that comment. It would definately be a welcomed change to see a major RA DL school establish a Masters/Doctorate Degree that would give everyone the capability to earn a degree, no matter where the learning took place. I think that the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon might be redefining the way we view and accept nontraditional learning and I hope it catches fire through the academic community.

[mosbybranch]

Most private institutions which are recognised by decree of the Ministry for Higher Education have the right to award official certificates [national level degree] (source: http://europa.eu.int/public-services/france/citizens/education/higher_education_en.htm)

Most of the private institutions that are subject to educational supervision by the French government are recognized officially [national level] (source: http://www.intstudy.com/articles/eurofrance.htm)

Private institutions that grant degree on behalf of the French government is national-level. And these institutions are recognized, listed in the French Ministry of Education.

Overall, Robert de Sorbon is a non-state, legally to grant degree. You may to want seek for an evaluation agency that would give you RA equivalency.

[Robert J.]

I kept a pre-judgement approach to Sorbon back over a month ago and I don't think I am anywhere closer to a decision because none of the discussion definitively states if Sorbon is above board.

1. Yes VAE Process is valid in France.

2. Yes French Degrees are highly regulated.

But the favorable Sorbon arguments are merely by deduction only.

VAE process is valid, French degrees highly regulated, Sorbon listed in some Journal as a school, therefore it must be legit. Yet no one from the French govt. (in fact quite the contrary so far) has ever responded with that same answer.

This simple deductional reasoning is a bit too loose from me. Someone from Degreeboard.com, Inc. is inquiring at a higher level in Europe to finally get definitive answers about Sorbon in particular. To me since they seem to have Govt Registration but not any oversight or approval from the French Higher Education Authorities or Ministry of Education Approval, I would classify today as them being closer to Wyoming or Alabama type of licensed school rather than an accredited US equivalency.

[ray1212]

Hello Robert J.

It is hard being nearly 4000 miles from France, and not have to ability to speak the language. Maybe I will learn French someday. I have a pretty good feeling regarding Sorbon. And this is because of several reasons.

First there is sufficient paperwork out there to backup their legal status and I have already gone into depth in a previous post regarding the research I have done. They have legal status to operate in France according to my review.

Second, it has been my experience that most diploma mills granting degrees at the graduate level based in prior learning do it without a sufficient amount of documentation for review. Such as, you send a detailed resume one day, and within 12 to 48 hours later, you receive notification that you have been approved for a Masters of PhD, based solely on your resume. I find this interesting because if you spend $150.00 to have a professionally prepared resume, you can earn your degree instantly. If that is the case, I can have a resume developed for each of my four dogs and get them a PhD in Barkology. I can't tell you how many offers I received granting me a PhD, based on my resume. I will be honest; I don't want a degree from a diploma mill! How would I feel if I was caught with a fraudulent degree.

Third, Sorbon charges a minimal price for their evaluation process. Initially they request a $60.00 refundable fee for the Admissions Committee to evaluate the credentials. If you receive a recommendation to candidacy for the degree, a final payment of $600.00 is made and the jury meets to consider your credentials. That is nothing! If the Admissions Committee refuses to grant your request, your initial $60.00 payment is happily refunded. Most diploma mills want between $1.100.00 to $2,500.00. And I bet they won't refund your money either. Also, in many cases with degree mills, you don't even know what their address is. The only way you have to contact them is by email or a toll free number. Sorbon is a nonprofit institution and I believe Alain Michal is very respectable.

For instance, I have been awarded Candidacy toward a DEA (Masters) in Public Administration. The jury will spend up to 2 months reviewing my documents and transcripts, and then if they concur with the admissions Committee, they will award the degree. Now I know I am not the only student, but what does it cost Sorbon to have three academic professionals appointed to a jury in order to review your credentials? Even if their work isn't full time, I would think it would be over $600.00.

Now more do you want? An approved degree based on the VAE process. It saves you time, since you don't have to sit for a year or more in a formal classroom setting. Based on an evaluation of your prior learning, you are awarded the degree and can start using the title for job advancement and enrolling in another program to earn a higher educational credential. It saves you money, since your degree is based on what you have already learned. No paying $250.00 a credit hour to take a class. Think of the other ways you save money, like no buying textbooks, paying to fill up the gas tank to get to and from class. No babysitters if you have young children. I can go on and on and would fill up several WebPages. It just makes sense to go with Sorbon and the VAE process.

I am going to enroll in a PhD Program after I complete the Masters at Sorbon. I hope everyone will seriously consider Sorbon as a viable alternative. I wish everyone well.

Sincerely

Ray

[dhfr]

... Sorbon charges a minimal price for their evaluation process. Initially they request a $60.00 refundable fee for the Admissions Committee to evaluate the credentials. If you receive a recommendation to candidacy for the degree, a final payment of $600.00 is made and the jury meets to consider your credentials. ... The jury will spend up to 2 months reviewing my documents and transcripts, and then if they concur with the admissions Committee, they will award the degree. Now I know I am not the only student, but what does it cost Sorbon to have three academic professionals appointed to a jury in order to review your credentials? Even if their work isn't full time, I would think it would be over $600.00. ...
This seems to be an argument that the process is not legitimate -- i.e. if they charge only $600, then is it reasonable to think that the three academics are reviewing the credentials in any depth?

[ray1212]

Hello dhfr,

Or maybe Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is honestly trying to establish them as an educational leader in the VAE process. I am confident that as someone previous stated if Sorbon was not following the letter of the law in France, they would be closed down.

Why is it so hard for everyone to keep an open mind and give it a chance to work? The process of evaluating experiential learning in the United States has been done for years, just not at the graduate level. Many colleges allow you to develop a portfolio to validate prior learning. France just happens to call the process VAE. And we have all seen their paperwork to operate there. I believe their license authorizing them to grant degrees to be valid and legit.

I will be happy to keen everyone informed after I am conferred the DEA (Masters) Degree from Sorbon as to it's applicability in the US for applying for jobs or entering a PhD Program. I am not going into this with a negative attitude.

How many times do we see a new idea come on the scene, and initially it is rejected, only later to gain wide acceptance? The VAE process deserves a chance. And since Sorbon is the only French educational institution willing to evaluate credentials in English and deal with English speaking students, I think that is commendable.

[mosbybranch]

A jury would analyze the file and, if so required, would interview the candidate, and prepare a recommendation to be presented to the president of the institution. The president would then take the final decision on the granting the credits or not [1]. From this, everything seems to be based on the jury decision and it’s not the institution. And interview may not be required. It’s statistically. What’s the chance for Scott Peterson not being guilty if the two earlier jury were not dismissed? I do not think Robert de Sorbon should be labeled as “mill” because of the jury’s mood and other factors. The institition, itself, follow the VAE procedure and should not be considered a mill.

I also recall Alian said the fee is mandated by law to be cheap. Does the jury have a share of the fee? I do not know. We cannot conclude that they do.

[1] http://www.nuffic.nl/ice-plar/pdf/FRANKRIJK.pdf

[ray1212]

:)

Dear Mosbybranch,

I have downloaded the ICE in PLAR in France Report of a study visit. I appreciate the information. Feel free to email me directly at microtechconsultants@yahoo.com if you have any additional information. I see from your postings that you are a big believer in the VAE Process. Also I see you support Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon. I would be interested in hearing from you directly.

It is quite an interesting report. I am going take time to digest it in its entirety. I spoke with someone yesterday who has earned his PhD from Sorbon. He seems real pleased.

Thanks,
Ray

[J]

This seems to be an argument that the process is not legitimate -- i.e. if they charge only $600, then is it reasonable to think that the three academics are reviewing the credentials in any depth?

One thing I would like to know is whether the jury members at Sorbon are perhaps giving their services voluntarily. They would not be the first staff at a non-traditional school to do so. Possibly if the whole thing is genuinely non-profit, the only people making money out of the end product are its favoured credential evaluators :?

[J]

Why is it so hard for everyone to keep an open mind and give it a chance to work?

Actually, I think this is the most open-minded of the many discussions on this issue that have taken place at the various boards.

No new school, particularly not one that is doing something this experimental, should expect an easy ride or immediate acceptance. But I for one support the concept that is being put forward by Sorbon, provided it is done with integrity.

I hope that you will find your degree does what you want it to do, and it would certainly be interesting to hear from you as to its utility. Best of luck.

[ray1212]

Dear J,

Thanks for your comments. I am just trying to help our members and will keep all of you informed.

Have a Great Day

Ray

[dhfr]

... Other business are in the Journaux as well, but they are not listed as Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur.

Are you suggesting that all it takes to grant academic degrees in France is a business license listing one's company as a 'higher education institution'?

Or are you suggesting that the use of these words means that some kind of rigorous academic standards have been successfully met? ...
This is indeed intriguing. We have evidence (from Les Journaux officiels) that Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon was created as a higher education institution. We also have evidence that prior-learning assessment is accepted in France. But the significance of Sorbon's authority remains unclear. If I may be allowed to consider some possible U.S. analogies: Is its license more akin to a license from Mississippi or a license from New York?

[Robert J.]

... Other business are in the Journaux as well, but they are not listed as Etablissement d'Enseignment Supérieur.

Are you suggesting that all it takes to grant academic degrees in France is a business license listing one's company as a 'higher education institution'?

Or are you suggesting that the use of these words means that some kind of rigorous academic standards have been successfully met? ...
This is indeed intriguing. We have evidence (from Les Journaux officiels) that Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon was created as a higher education institution. We also have evidence that prior-learning assessment is accepted in France. But the significance of Sorbon's authority remains unclear. If I may be allowed to consider some possible U.S. analogies: Is its license more akin to a license from Mississippi or a license from New York?

dhfr,

I think you are exactly where I am at too. I feel that we're only seeing 2 sides of the triangle with the third and most important side is someone from the Govt actually stating that Sorbon is legit, degrees must be accepted, "it's the law" (quoting Alain) etc etc. It would be a bombshell indeed but the fact that this simple question is still open after so long makes me skeptical.

[ray1212]

I am sure that the French Government is aware of the issue surrounding Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon and if they see anything illegal like some said previously, they will intervene. We can't police the French government or another entity within their borders. We can inquire as to all the facts and come to a decision on our own.

Now I feel compelled to make another comment. I certainly hope that this board doesn't become a clone of another URL already existing in somewhere in cyberspace. I know why Bill Dayson is so skeptical and I hope he will agree to let us disagree. Please!

I like it here, but I think we can be constructive and let each other have our own opinions. Let the French government do their thing.

I have a question to ask. Does anyone know when the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon started granting degrees? Some US academic institutions have been around a long time and have only recently be accredited.

Thanks and Happy Posting!

Ray1212

[michael]

I am sure that the French Government is aware of the issue surrounding Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon and if they see anything illegal like some said previously, they will intervene. We can't police the French government or another entity within their borders. We can inquire as to all the facts and come to a decision on our own.

Now I feel compelled to make another comment. I certainly hope that this board doesn't become a clone of another URL already existing in somewhere in cyberspace. I know why Bill Dayson is so skeptical and I hope he will agree to let us disagree. Please!

I like it here, but I think we can be constructive and let each other have our own opinions. Let the French government do their thing.

I have a question to ask. Does anyone know when the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon started granting degrees? Some US academic institutions have been around a long time and have only recently be accredited.

Thanks and Happy Posting!

Ray1212

I could be wrong, but I think they opened there doors about 6 months ago. I think the one thing that scares people about the school is the fact that the website is so directed at Americans.

[Bill Dayson]

Thanks for your excellent post, J.

You just raised the signal to noise ratio for RdS by a notch or two.

The first thing to make clear is that France has a national curriculum for degrees. What that means is that the requirements for each degree are laid down by law. Every "maitrise" or "license" or whatever has the same essential requirements...

If you do deviate from the law and commit the criminal offence of "irregular teaching" - yes, there is such an offence in France - you face heavy fines and even jail for the owners and administrators of the school...

Private schools are explicitly (L731) allowed to grant degrees but cannot grant the titles of baccalaureate, license or doctorat - those are restricted to the state universities.

OK, that makes sense.

But how is it consistent with RdS granting academic degrees as a result of its "VAE" assessments.

One possibility is that RdS meets all French statutory requirements, only grants those degrees that it's legally allowed to grant, and that those degrees correspond to what's promised. According to Ray, these RdS degrees include Ph.D.s.

Another possibility is that RdS is operating illegally in France, but just hasn't been busted yet.

But there's a third possibility as well.

There's an ambiguity between 'Ecole Superieur Robert de Sorbon' on one hand, and 'Universite Francophone Robert de Sorbon' on the other. The former seems to be incorporated in France and (presumably) operates in accordance with French law, the latter seems to have a Maine business license and claims "accreditation" from the Comorean island of Anjouan.

I wonder if that ambiguity isn't intentional.

The French approach is to make it easy for a private school to set up, but after that almost everything it does is directly controlled by nationally-set law.

So if the Ecole is both legal and operating, then it must meet those exacting French standards.

Well, my question is whether it's really operating, or whether it only exists on paper. If anyone can start an Ecole in France with just a business license, the owners could dodge the education law entirely by the simple expedient of never actually operating, at least on the level of the closely regulated degree programs.

But give the Ecole and the 'foreign' Universite the same name, operate them from the same address, and confuse anyone who tries to inquire by using the technical legal status of the one to "verify" the legitimacy of the other, which may well be doing things that would never meet French standards.

Certainly, I don't know if the two-headed RdS entity is really doing this. I'm really just speculating. But the possibility does seem consistent with everything that I've seen so far.

[ray1212]

I say once again, let the French Government police their own educational institutions. I am sure what has been previously posted here that if they are operating illegally, they will get reprimanded or closed down. Trying to second guess from 4000 miles away is a waste of time and mental energy.

It is futile to try and compare the educational system of the United States to that of France. And that goes for the US, State and Local government system in comparison to France and its various local governments. For goodness sake, we are setting here 4000 miles from French soil trying to second guess a system we really know nothing about. Can't we just take the matter on faith until we have sufficient evidence to the contrary?

Until the Ecole Superieur Robert de Sorbon is proven to be a diploma mill, for God's sake let it be! They are the new kid on the block. Why treat them like a step child and possibly defame them before you have all the facts.

I have a good feeling about this. I have reviewed RA degrees and diploma mills for many weeks and I know the difference between them. They just did not ask me to mail a check in turn for a diploma. They are seriously evaluating me my credentials.

Sincerely,

Ray1212

[chud]

Hi all,

This just in from the French Embassy in Washington:



Dear Sir,
In regards to your inquiry, from what we can tell, it is a legitimate
and credited University. They do have contact information on their website
if you wish to call them yourself. Good luck!

Sincerely,
Press and Information Office

----- Original Message -----
From: "French Embassy Press Service" <comment@ambafrance-us.org>
To: "Stagdoc1 - Questions" <info@ambafrance-us.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:35 AM
Subject: Fw: Info on French University


>
> Cordialement / Regards
> Service de Presse et d'Information / Press & Information Service
> Ambassade de France / Embassy of France
> Washington, D.C.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <cchulada@bownet.org>
> To: <comment@ambafrance-us.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 6:28 AM
> Subject: Info on French University
>
>
> > Info on French University :
> > Dear Embassy Representative,
> >
> > I am writing to request information on the French Ecole Supérieure
> > Universitaire Robert de Sorbon. www.sorbonedu.com
> >
> > This distance learning university, located at Le Coudray La Trimouille
> > 86290 France
> > (Tel in France : + 33172770043.) claims proper authority to grant
> > degrees via the French VAE laws.
> >
> > Registered French Institution of Higher Education
> > #0862003720
> >
> > Publication Journal Officiel de la République Française
> > #20040039-1669
> > aurhorized to bestow degrees L731-14
> >
> > Any information you could provide regarding the legal status and/or
proper
> > recognition of this school to grant degrees would be greatly appreciate.
> >
> > A am considering applying, but only if I can verify it is totally
> > legitimate and legal.
> >
> > Thank you for your assistance

[Bill Dayson]

I am writing to request information on the French Ecole Supérieure
> > Universitaire Robert de Sorbon. www.sorbonedu.com
> >
> > This distance learning university, located at Le Coudray La Trimouille
> > 86290 France
> > (Tel in France : + 33172770043.) claims proper authority to grant
> > degrees via the French VAE laws.
> >
> > Registered French Institution of Higher Education
> > #0862003720
> >
> > Publication Journal Officiel de la République Française
> > #20040039-1669
> > aurhorized to bestow degrees L731-14
> >
> > Any information you could provide regarding the legal status and/or
proper
> > recognition of this school to grant degrees would be greatly appreciate.

But the link provided goes to the Universite Francophone, which tells us on its website:

UFRDS a reçu sa charte de l'état du Maine sous le numéro: 20040586ND (sans but lucratif) L'Université francophone Robert de Sorbon est accréditée par l'académie Anjouan Union des Comores, membre de l'agence intergouvernentale de la francophonie.

That doesn't sound like the same thing at all.

[ray1212]

Hello Chud,

Your news regarding Sorbon is fantastic. I hope everyone will get the information copied and posted across the web on all pertinent degree boards. Please help me get the message out. Viva Ecole Supérieure Universitaire Robert de Sorbon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

Ray1212

[mosbybranch]

I am sure that the French Government is aware of the issue surrounding Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon and if they see anything illegal like some said previously, they will intervene. We can't police the French government or another entity within their borders. We can inquire as to all the facts and come to a decision on our own.

Now I feel compelled to make another comment. I certainly hope that this board doesn't become a clone of another URL already existing in somewhere in cyberspace. I know why Bill Dayson is so skeptical and I hope he will agree to let us disagree. Please!

I like it here, but I think we can be constructive and let each other have our own opinions. Let the French government do their thing.

I have a question to ask. Does anyone know when the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon started granting degrees? Some US academic institutions have been around a long time and have only recently be accredited.

Thanks and Happy Posting!

Ray1212

I could be wrong, but I think they opened there doors about 6 months ago. I think the one thing that scares people about the school is the fact that the website is so directed at Americans.

The Jounaux Officiels stated Ecole Superieure Robert de Sorbon started on August 26, 2004. The Université Francophone Robert de Sorbon and Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon are sister institutions.

[mosbybranch]

Hi all,

This just in from the French Embassy in Washington:

Dear Sir,
In regards to your inquiry, from what we can tell, it is a legitimate
and credited University. They do have contact information on their website
if you wish to call them yourself. Good luck!

Sincerely,
Press and Information Office



Hi Chud. Welcome to the board. Please scan the French Embassy's letter and post it for us to view. I understand the Press and Information Office never sign their letter?

[mosbybranch]

Hi all,

This just in from the French Embassy in Washington:

Dear Sir,
In regards to your inquiry, from what we can tell, it is a legitimate
and credited University. They do have contact information on their website
if you wish to call them yourself. Good luck!

Sincerely,
Press and Information Office



Hi Chud. Welcome to the board. Please scan the French Embassy's letter and post it for us to view. I understand the Press and Information Office never sign their letter?

OH, IT'S AN EMAIL. IGNORE AND DELETE THIS POST.

[Robert J.]

Hi all,

This just in from the French Embassy in Washington:



[i]Dear Sir,
In regards to your inquiry, from what we can tell, it is a legitimate
and credited University. They do have contact information on their website
if you wish to call them yourself. Good luck!

Sincerely,
Press and Information Office



This doesn't really sound like anything to me to either way. Any lay man after looking at their website and seeing the Journal would probably think the same. These are precise and technical questions we have that not just anyone from the Embassy can answer and they end the email by saying to ask Sorbon, this is clearly indicative there's no teeth in their response.

[J]

I think we pretty much have a handle