Some News from France

[sorbon]

For the real and open minded persons [comments about Degreeinfo removed] Now they just closed the thread about Robert de Sorbon as it was getting clear that we were totally vindicated.

[comments about poster at Degreeinfo removed]

When you have ennemies like that, you do not need any more friends ...

By the way Robert de Sorbon was a French Catholic priest....

Please visit our FAQ page at www.sorbonedu.com/faqengl.html and you will see :

1) That the Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon is controled academically by the Academie de Poitiers of the Education Nationale-French Government. This document confirms, that we are "An Institution of Higher Education-Etablissement d'Enseignement Supérieur Privé"[/b]

2) That such institutions are authorized by the French code of Education L 731-14 to grant degrees.

3) That the VAE is legal. Who doubt it now ? Remember at the beginning, it was a gross fake invented by the evil empire pof Sorbon ....for many so called "experts..."

4) The article L 613-4 authorizes "Les établissement d'enseignement Supérieur" to apply the VAE Here is the text in French:

L613-4 " La validation prévue à l'article L. 613-3 est prononcée par un jury dont les membres sont désignés par le président de l'université ou le chef de l'établissement d'enseignement supérieur en fonction de la nature de la validation demandée "

5) That our number of Professors with doctorate, is, according to us (to be confirmed), now bigger that the one from some public universities, allowing us to add the prestigious word "Faculté Libre" for our different schools as per L 731-5.

We have a server, which is, I think remotly located in the the USA, but our French sites www.sorbon.fr and www.sorbon-uni.fr are registereted in France.

The best way to contact us is sorbon@sorbon.fr or by mail in France.

Our pages are at www.sorbon-uni.fr

Merci excuse my English, which is not at par with the quality of our institution.


" Que la lumière du Seigneur vous apporte la clarté, vous enlève la haine et rende votre jugement plus juste"


Joyeux Noël à tous !

[sorbon]

Bonjour!

I think that the following news could be of interest to you.

-In France, Robert de Sorbon has now the right and I will say the honor, to be called Faculté Libre as per Art 731-5 of the Code de l'Education, because of its number of faculty PhD holders.

- We are no more labeled as a diploma mill by the ODA. :twisted:
There is there still a lot of laughable errors and diffamations. It is "Contreras à la verité" :p as we say in French. We will keep you informed of our future actions.

-Now Four (4) US evaluators, as far as we know, evaluate our degrees as equivalent to US accredited ones. Professors at US Public Universities had their degrees recognized for promotion and change of status.

-The Ecole Supérieure Robert de Sorbon satisfies the new Feb 1st, 2005 US Government requirements for Federal employement which states:

"Unless the foreign education meets the criteria in paragraph (a) above, applicants must submit all necessary documents to a private U.S. organization that specializes in interpretation of foreign educational credentials, commonly called a credential evaluation service. "

- We have alumni in more than 45 countries. It is still growing and many desire to be mentioned in our alumni page.

- We posted a letter of the Académie de Poitiers,See our page (http://www.sorbonedu.com/faqengl.html) that proves they control our institution as any French établissement d'enseignement Supérieur. (French Institution of Higher Education).

We frankly laugth at some postings that links the now defunct St Regis, WKU, KWU and ourselves... We will not convinced our visceral ennemies, we just want to inform "les hommes de bonne volonté."

Merci !

[kr]

Dear Alain,

You said that "Now Four (4) US evaluators, as far as we know, evaluate our degrees as equivalent to US accredited ones." Which ones, please?

[sorbon]

Please see our page www.sorbon-uni.fr they are mentioned there. We hope to have some more soon.
Regards

[mattie]

Are these evaluation agencies owned by Sheila Danzig (CCI) or Dr. Prade (AUAP, Credentialevaluation.org, Foreign Credential Evaluation)?
Congratulations on your progress with ODA, although as a French university you do not really need their approval. Good for you!

[Robert J.]

Alain:

I still see this on the ODA Website:

U. Francophone R. de Sorbon

France, Maine, Switzerland, Florida and the Comoro Islands ODA has no evidence that this is a legitimate provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards under ORS 348.609(a). Does not appear on lists of French degree-granting entities. Not the same as 'Sorbonne', which refers to three government-recognized universities in Paris. Claims of AACRAO approval are inaccurate, and based on statements made by an organization called AUAP Credential Evaluation Services of Florida. This entity is using the AACRAO logo without permission.

[kr]

Please see our page www.sorbon-uni.fr they are mentioned there. We hope to have some more soon.
Regards
1. AUAP (at www.auap.com): Prade
2. CCI (Career Consulting International; had been "Career Consultants International," both at www.thedegreepeople.com): Sheila Danzig, working as "Liz Ross"
3. "www.CredentialEvaluation.org" (at credentialevaluation.org): Prada (email goes to evalorg@auap.com)
4. Foreign Credential Evaluation & Research Foundation Inc. (no web site; email goes to cauniversity@aol.com. This email address also appears on the site for "California University Foreign Credential Evaluations and Research Amorsolo Foundation, Incorporated: www.cufce.org/contact.html )

See Educators' Degrees Earned On Internet Raise Fraud Issues, Andrew Trotter, Education Week, May 5, 2004: Small firms known as "credential evaluators" help states and school districts detect educators who present phony or flimsy academic credentials from overseas institutions--a safeguard that is becoming more important with the growth of online education.

But experts say the little-known credential-evaluation industry may itself be vulnerable to unethical operators, judging from a recent credentials scandal in Georgia...

...last year, the Georgia officials accepted those credentials [from Saint Regis University] because of letters they received from a credential evaluator, Career Consultants International, of Sunrise, Fla. CCI said the credentials were equal to those from a regionally accredited U.S. university.

The officials now suspect that CCI was not giving independent evaluations, according to the commission's executive secretary, F.D. Toth...

Sheila Danzig said in an interview last month that she runs CCI under the business name of Elizabeth or Liz Ross.

Ms. Danzig described a relationship with Saint Regis that throws into question the company's objectivity as an evaluator of credentials.

She said her company receives a fee, paid by Saint Regis, every time CCI evaluates the academic credentials of one of its students. She also said she was a paid consultant to Saint Regis as recently as two years ago... This would suggest that the opinion of a CCI evaluator is not reliable.

[mosbybranch]

Hi Alain,

What documents or actions did Mr. Contreras receive from you/your government in order to remove Sorbon from being labeled as diploma mill? Please share with us.

Mosby

[ray1212]

I too would be interested to learn the basis for ODA removing them from their list and if the various credential sources are legit. If they are, I would gladly apologize for any criticism in the past given to Alain.

[sorbon]

Are these evaluation agencies owned by Sheila Danzig (CCI) or Dr. Prade (AUAP, Credentialevaluation.org, Foreign Credential Evaluation)?
Congratulations on your progress with ODA, although as a French university you do not really need their approval. Good for you!

Frankly I do not know who owns what, ;) but Foreign Credential Evaluation is a Foundation (not for profit) represented by a female Dr... which is not one the persons mentioned.

[sorbon]

Hi Alain,

What documents or actions did Mr. Contreras receive from you/your government in order to remove Sorbon from being labeled as diploma mill? Please share with us.

Mosby

Our counsel respects, contrary to the other part, the confidentiality of a legal negotiation/settlement.

We provided the State of Oregon, represented by the Assistant attorney general and ODA with French documents that proved that we are a legitimate. Those documents are simply the ones we mentioned in our pages and in this forum. It is intentionally that Oregon remove the infamous "Diploma Mill" label. As said before, their comments are still false (we corrected them about the unique Sorbonne :o) and I assure we will go further in having our rights restored.

If AUAP is a devil :twisted:, despite being one of the largest US firm, Mrs Danzig a fraud (why) ? We are glad to see that the "Salisseurs de Mémoire" as said in the famous French film, could not find anything against the fourth evaluator.

Frankly the US market, while interesting, represent only 20% of our student population the majority being French, European and African (from French speaking countries)

I suggest we stop this thread when the vicious attacks will start.

[mattie]

I did not see anyone calling them a "devil" or a "fraud", but thank you for clarifying the ownerships. Alain, you tell of your victories with the ODA but you do not wish to tell how these came about? The topic is very interesting as many here are very interested in how the ODA determines what is a diploma mill and what is not. You come foward to say that you succeeded in the removal of that label. It seems that now your school could make a very important contribution by describing how this was done. So far no one seems to know much about it or how it works. Letting others know how this ODA works may make you a hero!

[ray1212]

I just went on the ODA website. Why do they still have them listed?


http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html


"U. Francophone R. de Sorbon France, Maine, Switzerland, Florida and the Comoro Islands ODA has no evidence that this is a legitimate provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards under ORS 348.609(a). Does not appear on lists of French degree-granting entities. Not the same as 'Sorbonne', which refers to three government-recognized universities in Paris. Claims of AACRAO approval are inaccurate, and based on statements made by an organization called AUAP Credential Evaluation Services of Florida. This entity is using the AACRAO logo without permission."

[sorbon]

I did not see anyone calling them a "devil" or a "fraud", but thank you for clarifying the ownerships. Alain, you tell of your victories with the ODA but you do not wish to tell how these came about? The topic is very interesting as many here are very interested in how the ODA determines what is a diploma mill and what is not. You come foward to say that you succeeded in the removal of that label. It seems that now your school could make a very important contribution by describing how this was done. So far no one seems to know much about it or how it works. Letting others know how this ODA works may make you a hero!


Cher Monsieur "Mattie",

Our lawyer is not a hero and I am not one by far. We had only a small victory. I repeat that their phrases are still totally fallacious and defamatory but I am instructed by our counsel not to further to explain why. They just withdrew the "Diploma Mill" étiquette.

As I told you when you submit to a real lawyer (not Contreras who was a lawyer but is no overatching), in that case an Assistant Attorney General the official French documents about our institution, he or she realizes that the State of Oregon can not call our French Institution of Higher Education a "diploma mill" without great consequences in a French Court of Law.

We submited simply:

-Certificate of incorporation (non profit)
-Extract from the French Journal Officiel
-Letter from the Académie de Poitiers of the French Education Nationale confirming our status of Etablissement d'Enseignement secondaire and showing their control.
-Articles of the French code of Education which allows us to grant degrees.
-Article of the French Code legitimazing the VAE (validation des Acquis de l'Expérience).
-Statutes of Oregon about Foreign Universities


How ODA determines the Diploma Mills Status ?

I have my theory (just a theory): Mr. Contreras reads Degreeinfo.com and put in his official Oregon list every name that is trashed there by anyone.

I can assure you under oath, that Mr. Contreras never contacted us and did not follow any due process or documentation. (Contrary to what you rightfully asked from me). He just labeled us Diploma Mill one night with zero information, zero checking, zero documentation zero background check, etc.. He invented "one sorbone" and "French Lists of Degree granting entities" put it in html to post it on the web as an official decision of the State of Oregon.

It is "big Brother" revisited. But he had to retreat on that

Continuons le Combat !!!

Regards, Merci de votre attention,

--

[J]

I note that there is another (public) College Robert de Sorbon in the Ardennes. It's mentioned here: www.ac-reims.fr/annuaire_etabl/pdf/clg_pub08.pdf

It would appear that the name is used by quite a number of unlinked establishments in France.

With that said and the other posts standing as they do, I think this is probably a good point to suggest that we leave the subject here. People hold strong views on the school and there is no point in retreading old ground - the other threads on it here state the various positions.

[Robert J.]

Since there was some new information released on this thread. "J" and I decided it was ok to leave it open for a bit longer. But if it turns into more debate the leads no where it will be shut down.

Thanks.

[adamsmith]

This institution seems to be the subject of endless debate.

Can anyone summarize just what standing this institution has? There is no doubt that it is legitimate and legal, but what value is a degree from this institution? Are there degrees really for employment value or could a graduate use a Sorbon qualification to gain admittance into an accredited school?

[J]

This institution seems to be the subject of endless debate.

Can anyone summarize just what standing this institution has? There is no doubt that it is legitimate and legal, but what value is a degree from this institution? Are there degrees really for employment value or could a graduate use a Sorbon qualification to gain admittance into an accredited school?

I'll have a go.

It has the status of a French higher education provider in private ownership but under the control of the French MoE through its regional academie. In addition, France ordains a national curriculum for all degrees by law, so individual institutions are not free, for example, to decide to award a degree with fewer courses or in other ways that the law does not allow.

All in all, I conclude that the legislative environment for schools in France is actually tougher than regional accreditation in the USA because of the law mandating degree requirements *combined with site inspection etc by the academies*. "Irregular teaching" - ie. deviating from the legal degree requirements - is punishable by fines and jail in France.

I have no doubt that the degrees Sorbon issues will be found useful in some employment situations. As to accredited schools, my thought is they'll probably be as useful there too as an accredited PLA degree from somewhere else. The fact that what they are doing is fully backed by national law on VAE helps a lot.

At the end of the day, Sorbon is part of the French system, and the French system mandates by law what schools can and can't do as regards curriculum and operations. There's no "wiggle room" on course requirements in the same way as an unaccredited school in the US - either Sorbon obeys the letter of the law or it gets shut down and its owners fined.

It's a very exciting development, IMHO. Where does it leave the ODA? My opinion is that ODA would do well to be careful when listing schools that can produce evidence that they are accredited by a foreign government.

[J]

I have moved a post from Alain made some time ago from the admin area to this thread.

[Dennis Ruhl]

If it is possible to get a listing with UNESCO then I think any argument is over - totally over.

[michael]

If it is possible to get a listing with UNESCO then I think any argument is over - totally over.

Well, Berne was listed in UNESCO but it was still considered to be a less than wonderful. I think the real test will be if AACRAO or any NACES member says it is equivelant. I personally still have doubts.

[A-N]

I like Sorbon and I like what they are doing, I think they are performing a valuable service evaluating and assessing experience and credentials and converting same into academic credits.
From what I have read I think that they are legal but the big question is, in my opinion, legitimacy. How well is this process accepted by other academic institutions and businesses, is it ( the process ) done under strict guidelines and rules?
Can an entire degree be awarded for documented experience and if so would business and academia accept such a degree, can anyone say for certain if such a degree has been accepted and/or enjoy limited or growing acceptance by respectable and recognized schools and businesses?
Just some of the questions lingering in my mind.